• gowan@reddthat.com
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    1 year ago

    The Taliban is willing to murder people to keep them in line. The US DOD was not willing to kill the thousands of people extrajudicially that would have bern needed to stop the drug trade.

    Edit: EXTRAJUDICIALLY means without a trial or in this case as a directive from the WH. They aren’t in theory just murdering for the sake of murdering. The Tailban, on the other hand, are less focused on trials for these people though they are turning a blind eye to the growth of the opium trade post 2021 takeover.

    • Victor_Lucas [he/him]@hexbear.net
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      1 year ago

      The US is willing to kill hundreds of thousands (millions) of people for trying to pass things like small labor reforms i.e the Jakarta Method in Indonesia

      Americans are the drug trade, the world supply of opium dropped to almost nothing after Americans retreated from Afghanistan and the Taliban re-established their already right-wing, pre-American invasion policies on poppy crops.

      The drug war funds the CIA black budget the same way Civil Asset Forfeiture funds your local police department.

      • gowan@reddthat.com
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        1 year ago

        The USA is willing to let other people kill people in Jakarta. The US military is not doing it themselves which is the difference here. The US DoD would have to sign off on the extrajudicial killings of Afghani civilians vs not engaging in war crimes to stop killing in Indonesia.

        The rest of your post compounds on that ignorance.

        • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.net
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          Not sure why you’re drawing a magical difference between the US military telling its troops to do it and the US military telling some other troops to do it. Both are happening at the request of the US.

            • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.net
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              It’s extrajudicial BOTH WAYS you fucking dipshit. It’s not magically different. Both are extrajudicial.

              Why the fuck are you treating it differently?? Answer the question.

              • gowan@reddthat.com
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                1 year ago

                Because killing someone in a battle as an act of war isn’t extrajudicial killing.

                • Victor_Lucas [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  Tying yourself up into knots over explaining legal definitions to the barrel of a gun.

                  The rules are made up and interpretations are deferred until after the fact to justify the actions and interests of a state.

                  Any political or historical education would make this abundantly clear but Americans are raised to believe fairy-tales into adulthood.

                  Liberals really don’t have the tools to pick the world apart, only the most educated and outwardly evil liberals like Kissinger are comfortable being honest with themselves.

                  No wonder you hate socialists.

                • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  Yes it is. What the fuck do you think extrajudicial killing means? It means a killing that took place without a legal judgement. That’s it. That’s all it means.

                  You are inventing your own idea of “extrajudicial” here, in which you have decided entirely in your own head that one means “good killing” and the other means “bad killing”.

                  And at the end of the day all of this is just you trying to divert away from the issue - both are killing at the orders of the US empire. You’re dancing around this because you’re trying to argue that one is more acceptable than the other because you are a nationalist supporter of that empire and its campaign of mass murder, which you view as something to your personal benefit like a rube.

                • Egon [they/them]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  It’s a battle because the people the want to kill are defending themselves. That doesn’t make it not extra judicial - not that judicial is somehow an adjective that makes anything moral or whatever

            • I love how debate nerds get so caught up in whether something is legal or not. News flash, laws are worthless without enforcement, and there isn’t currently any entity capable of preventing NATO forces from murdering people whenever they please

              • Egon [they/them]@hexbear.net
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                1 year ago

                Shoot my ex wife.

                “I did not kill that man”.

                Someone is a transphobe in that example of yours, and when I find out who I’m going to kill them (don’t worry it’s okay, I have a piece of paper that says it’s not extra judicial)

        • Victor_Lucas [he/him]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          The USA is willing to let other people kill people in Jakarta. The US military is not doing it themselves which is the difference here.

          That’s not what the Jakarta method is, sorry but you don’t know what you’re talking about.

          The rest of your post compounds on that ignorance.

          You can try saying that but you have a giant gap in your history education, and with that, a fundamentally incomplete way of seeing and interpreting the world, and world events.

          You don’t seem to be aware of Afghanistan pre-American intervention, the left direction of Afghanistan’s development (the sovietization of Afghanistan), its former place in the international socialist bloc, or the reasons driving the nation’s current relations with China.

          Take a long look at America’s relationship to the UAE and Israeli right-bulwarks and the general relationship and co-operation between the Soviets and the Islamic regions of the world. For whatever mistakes they made there were strong bonds between Soviets and Islam and together they would have built the middle east into the center of the advanced world again. The eastern republics would have landed on the Lunar South pole well before India did this month.

          The US has no interest in mutual and internationalist development, the entire core logic of the American project is post-colonial extraction. There aren’t sufficient democratic structures of enough robustness and sophistication to steer the project otherwise. Underlying any and all decisions by the American state is nothing and only capital.

          • gowan@reddthat.com
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            1 year ago

            Oh I an aware of how the extremely small and unpopular communist movement within Afghanistan forced its jackboots down the throats of the working people of Afghanistan.

            • RedDawn [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              So you like the US support the jihadists?

              “Forced its jackboots down the throats”

              Lmfao they sent girls to school and other liberatory things, that’s what got the jihadists (and apparently you) riled up.

          • gowan@reddthat.com
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            1 year ago

            The Jakarta method was when 1 million people were murdered by the Indonesian military. Why aren’t you blaming the Indonesian government for that as they very willingly took part? It’s the sane situation the USA isn’t killing these people and asking why they don’t stop it is asking why the USA isn’t the world police.

            • Victor_Lucas [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              The Jakarta method, underselling it, describes US collaboration with right-wing capitalist governments to violently suppress left-wing organizing toward the transition to a socialist economy and mode of production. The Jakarta method differs from previous interventions with a wildly increased emphasis on daily terror, sexual violence and raising home-grown colonial-born, American trained, armed, and funded, equivalents of Weimar Germany’s Freikorp via the convergence of interests between liberals (capitalists) and fascists (capitalists).

              You’re outing yourself by either not knowing, or purposely omitting, the role of the PKI, the world’s largest Communist Party outside of China and the Soviet Union. A varied but ultimately democratic socialist organization historically defined and remembered by and because of its pacifism, and self-disarmament.

              This Party came in the wave of the Soviet-aligned post-war wave of anti-colonial revolutions and class consciousness that supported solidified after the Soviet defeat of the newcomer fascist bloc of capital (as opposed to the incumbent ‘liberal’ bloc of capital) during the second world war. Their destruction came after a string of successful resistances to American anti-socialist intervention immediately after the war. In Eastern Europe, in Korea and in Vietnam. The Jakarta method describes a more sophisticated, and wildly more violent and shocking, fascist response to the left-wing self-organization of former-colonial subject states. An intensity and volume of bloodshed, sexual violence, terrorism, and lies that you’re repeating to this day.

              Repeating because of something as simple and flimsy as an address on a spreadsheet.

              Edit: and yes communists and anti-colonialists have for what you’re describing, they’re called collaborators. You’re describing the administrative state that’s left in place to manage the flow of commodities and western capital during both formal colonial occupation and the imperialist post-colonial period of capital penetration.

            • RedDawn [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              The US actively supported the killing and provided names of people to be killed, they didn’t just “not stop it” you fucking dingus. They ARE the “world police” and like other police they are murderous scumbags

        • HornyOnMain@hexbear.net
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          The US actively backed Suharto to coup the democratically elected government of Indonesia and then western press ran apologia for both the military coup and the murder of 1 million communists, feminists and ethnic minorities by the aforementioned unelected US backed military dictatorship

        • FortifiedAttack [he/him]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          So what you’re saying is, if I were to hire a hitman to take out your sorry white cracker ass, I would be completely justified and be free of any blame?

    • Flyberius [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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      1 year ago

      I’m sorry what? What do you think the US was doing in Afghanistan for 20 years. The US loves an extrajudicial killing.

      The Taliban have achieved this by offering better prices for food crops, which is what they need due to us sanctions. So it turns out that the us did have the power all along.

      Also, that’s another thing the us likes to do, starve countries that don’t dance to their tune.

      • gowan@reddthat.com
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        1 year ago

        Key word is “extrajudicial”. We could easily have stopped the drug trade if Americans were willing to accept the wholesale destruction of Afghanistan.

        • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.net
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          if Americans were willing to accept the wholesale destruction of Afghanistan.

          Americans didn’t give a fuck what happened in Afghanistan what fucking planet are you on??? They supported carpet bombing it. How old are you? Were you still a child when it started and can’t remember what it was actually like?

          • Echo71Niner@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            They never gave a fuck even when they armed the afghans to shoot down Russian planes, they were just a proxy US-Russia war with afghan as puppets.

            • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.net
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              It was fucking disgusting back then. You could speak to 99 random americans and they’d support bombing the shit out of afghan and killing whoever was necessary to get osama. It was SO fucking different to how it is now with libs at least being performative about not being bloodthirsty monsters. Back then it was bipartisan support for mass killing and obliteration. Nobody gave a fuck.

              Don’t get me started on the constant omnipresent casual racism.

              • Chapo0114 [comrade/them, he/him]@hexbear.net
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                1 year ago

                The first time I realized I was, for lack of a better word, different than the people I grew up around is when one of my high school buddies just casually said we should “just glass the middle east and get it over with”. Glassing is a term we got from Halo which means to incinerate an area with such a high heat the surface turns to glass. His proposed method was obviously nuclear bombs.

                No one else thought it was an outlandish thing to say, much less a truly abhorrent one.

        • Victor_Lucas [he/him]@hexbear.net
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          They don’t care, Americans destroyed every building in Korea (the famous “no targets remaining” quote). Giving almost every right-wing group in the country rifles and stinger missiles, to throw the country into a permanent state of civil war, has the exact same effect as carpet bombing.

          Minus the invasion consolidating into a left-wing anti-American socialist front, which happened in Korea, Vietnam, Laos and Cuba.

          A permanent civil war, lead by a right wing government, still allows the export of surplus value which is collected by Americans. A left-wing government would try to keep that surplus inside the country to further develop means of production.

          It’s called Shock therapy and even some liberals (the most politically educated and articulate) are conscious of this happening.

          Henry Kissinger’s life work is architecting American interventions that result in right-wing reactions rather than left-wing ones. Give all the right-wing groups guns, they kill the left, the country remains defenceless from extraction, and by the time Americans intervene it’s multiple squabbling right-wing militias instead of a united socialist front with an industrial base and functioning anti-air missiles.

        • RedDawn [he/him]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          America was the one running the drug trade you absolute fucking dipshit. They didn’t want to stop it because they made bank off of it.

          if they were willing to accept the wholesale destruction of Afghanistan

          They were, and they did destroy it. What are you smoking?

        • TreadOnMe [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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          Ah yes, there it is. The ‘stabbed in the back’ ‘we weren’t really trying to win’ American military apologia.

          Even if you bombed every single building in Afghanistan, you wouldn’t have won that war. That’s why they stopped doing it. Get fucked you stupid loser.

    • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.net
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      1 year ago

      The Taliban is willing to murder people to keep them in line. The US DOD was not willing to kill the thousands of people extrajudicially

      HAHAHAHAHAHAHA holy shit people actually believe this.

      Have you read the Jakarta Method?

      • ikiru@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        They are an idiot troll and I feel like I wasted my time reading through their deranged contributions to this thread.

        But your book recommendation made it worth it! Thanks!

        • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.net
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          It is very painful and difficult to read.

          Every single person the book talks about is a person like every user here on Hexbear, with the same beliefs and ideals of a world future united and free of capitalist exploitation. It is very painful and very difficult to get through if you humanise the numbers, each with a family that was destroyed.

          For any americans looking to seriously break lingering nationalist brainworms they may have I also like:

          • ikiru@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            Yeah, I can imagine. I saw Act of Killing which was similarly brutal to watch for similar reasons.

            I don’t think I have any nationalist brainworms to break but I’ll look that one up too. Thanks!

            • Mardoniush [she/her]@hexbear.net
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              It makes you go from “The US is evil and the current power structure must be destroyed, but with revolution it can become a force of peace and humanity on the world stage” to “JDPON wen?”

      • gowan@reddthat.com
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        1 year ago

        What the fuck are you talking about? The first war was over the invasion of Kuwait. The second war was to steal oil. At no time did we attack to prevent Sadam from rebuilding.

        • Cromalin [she/her]@hexbear.net
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          “half a million iraqi children” is a reference to the sanctions in the 90s that were explicitly a punishment meant to prevent iraq from rebuilding post gulf war

        • SootySootySoot [any]@hexbear.net
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          You’re somewhat agreeing - by preventing rebuilding, it becomes a lot easier to build/steal a country’s oil refineries. You already admit one invasion was over oil - Surely you can see how invading a country and killing tens/hundreds of thousands of civilians just to steal oil is ‘extrajudicial’ killing?

    • silent_water [she/her]@hexbear.net
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      1 year ago

      The US DOD was not willing to kill the thousands of people extrajudicially that would have bern needed to stop the drug trade.

      this might unironically be the funniest and most incorrect statement ever posted. it’s so divorced from reality that you must have typoed and meant some other place. the US has not once ever stopped murdering tens of thousands – or even millions – of people for the sake of a quick buck. please, dear god, listen to the Blowback podcast. you’re talking about the military that firebombed Korea so hard that people had to live in caves in order to survive after virtually every single city was completely and totally leveled, kill 20% of the population, all to institute a despotic police state in the name of repressing every single progressive tendency in the population.

    • Echo71Niner@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      Fuck the Taliban and the US war machine, they are both fucking assholes esp. the way Americans ran the fuck away from AFGHANISTAN, but facts are fact, Taliban nuked that trade while the US allowed it to flourished. It does not make Taliban better in general, they are still close minded, uneducated door knobs, just like half the US rednecks.

      • Victor_Lucas [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        The Taliban closed the opium trade but the big picture is they are still exporting low-value form commodities (raw oil, ore) instead of retaining enough surplus to develop the means to produce high-value form goods (gasoline, electronics, stainless steel medical needles) which is what a left wing government would (did, 1987-1992) do.

        If the U.S Government was unsuccessful in supplying and elevating the Gorbachev clique into power and unsuccessful in arming the Mujahideen+ affiliates (which consolidated into the Taliban), the Republic of Afghanistan would probably have fully secularized and industrialized by now.

        Any space for right extremism would have been taken up by universal high education, land-reform, cyberneticist economic planning, advanced high-value production and other zero-poverty + full-employment initiatives.

          • gowan@reddthat.com
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            1 year ago

            Not at all look at the sates in your article vs the ones in the study. Your article is talking about after 4/23 and mine is before then. It isn’t bullshit the fact is it might be eventually reduced but immediately afterwards it spiked.

    • Egon [they/them]@hexbear.net
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      1 year ago

      Lmao the law isn’t some infallible deity. It’s a tool of oppression wielded by those in power. The fact that someone got killed, but a judge said it was ok, doesn’t mean it’s in any way not a murder.
      Though I’d like to see the trial of the wedding that got dronestriked, or the many other civilians murdered by the us in Afghanistan.