Okay, so background: I’m your average pro-gun fuck-the-police, fuck-trump zoomer honed by years of unsupervised internet access and I’ve just discovered this community and started lurking for a while. But I still hold extremely negative views on China, which I still think are justified.

“Which views?” I’ll throw them out real quick: child labor! internet censorship! media censorship! anti-LGBTQ! uygher genocide? positive and pro war relations with russia! (because fuck putin)

So I get really confused anytime I see people expressing pro-China sentiments. Have I been spoonfed by the media or are some of these points actually justified?

  • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.net
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    2 years ago

    child labor!

    More of that in america mate, illegal in China.

    internet/media censorship

    You need to view this in the context of protecting the revolution. Let’s say that you have a revolution in whatever country you’re in tomorrow, are you just going to let the internet be a free space to foster and create fascist dissidents? Are you going to let foreign (capitalist) countries run your social media for you? Or are you going to limit various things in order to ensure that only domestic companies run your internet-media so that you can police them appropriately if they try to weaponise those forms of media as tools to overthrow proletarian rule and install bourgeoise rule?

    I assume you’ve actually read some marx here, but if not, I want to just quote a small segment of chapter 2 of the communist manifesto at you.

    The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degree, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralise all instruments of production in the hands of the State, i.e., of the proletariat organised as the ruling class; and to increase the total productive forces as rapidly as possible.

    Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property, and on the conditions of bourgeois production; by means of measures, therefore, which appear economically insufficient and untenable, but which, in the course of the movement, outstrip themselves, necessitate further inroads upon the old social order, and are unavoidable as a means of entirely revolutionising the mode of production.

    These measures will, of course, be different in different countries.

    Nevertheless, in most advanced countries, the following will be pretty generally applicable.

    1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
    2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
    3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
    4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
    5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
    6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
    7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
    8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
    9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
    10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c.

    Pay special attention to what I’ve bolded here, the paragraph and bullet point 6. The point being that centralisation and control of all media is completely in-keeping with Marx’s (and the other writers) views on the matter. Media is a tool of the bourgeoisie that costs a significant amount of money, it functions as a means of power exerted through wealth to control and influence outcomes in a state. Removing these from the bourgeoisie and centralising them in the hands of proletarian control is part of overthrowing the bourgeoisie.

    The reason the bourgeoisie have propagandised you into disliking this is BECAUSE it massively harms and affects them. They wouldn’t give a shit about it if it harmed the proles, they only give a shit because it affects them.

    anti-LGBTQ

    China practices a bottom-up system of power. Starting at the mass line via committees and polling. This does result in slower progress on social change than a top-down approach. With that said however, lgbt issues are progressing as younger generations age up, and this more or less guarantees progress as long as the system does not change as the overall population will exert its power over time. Boomers are the thing holding it back. It is also I think fair to point out that lgbt issues are not going great in the west, with a large push for reversal well underway.

    uygher genocide

    Literally didn’t happen. An oppressive crackdown and re-education program? Yes sure. Genocide? No. A simple thought experiment that you should do here is to ask yourself how Israel, a country that is much much smaller with more resources to spend per population doesn’t manage to stop evidence of its crimes from occurring(see /r/israelexposed), yet what have you actually seen of China’s so-called genocide? Nothing. No refugees. No video evidence (in a country where people all have cameras). Fuck all.

    What did happen was that China cracked down on islamic extremism that was being fostered through cia connections across the border with afghanistan, which the US was occupying at the time. China combatted this by undertaking an absolutely massive re-education program to raise the quality of living, jobs and prospects of susceptible people in the region. It turns out that people with good jobs don’t want to do suicide bombings.

    This is obviously a topic that needs more than 2 paragraphs to dispel. Feel free to question and dig deeper. There are certainly images you’ll have seen without hearing the evidence against them, and there will be stories you’ve seen peddled from a false pov. I’m happy to go into them, I also recommend this report: https://www.qiaocollective.com/education/xinjiang

    positive and pro war relations with russia! (because fuck putin)

    Geopolitically speaking it is essential for China to ensure Russia doesn’t collapse or fall into the Western sphere. If it did then the result would be 50 nato bases planted on the border and China would be utterly surrounded, isolated, and any future of it as an influential power seriously hampered. It would be fucked quite frankly.

    Not sure where you got the idea that they’re pro-war. They are brokering for peace. Have been the entire time.

    EDIT:

    OH wait I can’t believe I forgot to quote Lenin on freedom of the press

    “All over the world, wherever there are capitalists, freedom of the press means freedom to buy up newspapers, to buy writers, to bribe, buy and fake “public opinion” for the benefit of the bourgeoisie.” – V I Lenin, 1921

    Freedom of media just means freedom of the bourgeoisie to buy and own all means of influence in society. None of them will be proletarian unless strictly controlled to be so, all of them will be owned by some fucking billionaire or fund that answers to many millionaires.

    • UmbraVivi [he/him, she/her]@hexbear.net
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      2 years ago

      Adding to the point about censorship:

      The reason the topic of “censorship” is seen as such a taboo in Western countries is because of the belief in the “free marketplace of ideas”, a fundamental pillar of liberal democracy and liberalism in general. The idea that, if you just let everyone give their opinions and arguments, the free marketplace of ideas will ensure that only the best ideas prevail and society will improve as a result. From the liberal’s point of view, bad ideas would be filtered out anyway so censorship is unnecessary and only serves to suppress free thought.

      Of course, this is nonsense. The “free marketplace of ideas” only exists in a fantasy world where everyone is arguing in good faith and is expressing their differing ideas with the genuine intent of making life better for everyone. Right-wing rhetoric, however, consists exclusively of bad faith arguments and outright lies. They have no intentions of improving society, they want to enforce their imaginary hierarchies where they are at the top and you do as they say. Their ideas are worthless and harmful through and through, but they appeal to the selfish, fearful parts in many of us that kinda like the idea of naturally being more “deserving”, simply “better” than others.

      It’s like if I offered you heroin and a nutrient bar and told you “You get to choose your future diet, but you have to try both to give each a fair chance.” One is clearly better, but many would still choose the other after being exposed to it.

      Right-wing ideas are harmful and worthless. They are not presented in good faith and should, in fact, be censored.

    • Llituro [he/him, they/them]@hexbear.net
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      2 years ago

      anti-LGBTQ

      also much like the us, china has a lot of regional difference on lgbt rights. the shanghai branch of the party for instance has been much more vocal in pushing for progress than a western viewer would every be aware of.

      • anoncpc [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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        2 years ago

        Yup, rural China maybe still have some conservative view, but in urban area, there are a lot of progress. Can’t just blanket anti-lgbt entire country just because one or two province, or you have to call out the US too, they also pretty damn anti lgbt.