Okay, so background: I’m your average pro-gun fuck-the-police, fuck-trump zoomer honed by years of unsupervised internet access and I’ve just discovered this community and started lurking for a while. But I still hold extremely negative views on China, which I still think are justified.
“Which views?” I’ll throw them out real quick: child labor! internet censorship! media censorship! anti-LGBTQ! uygher genocide? positive and pro war relations with russia! (because fuck putin)
So I get really confused anytime I see people expressing pro-China sentiments. Have I been spoonfed by the media or are some of these points actually justified?
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the maoist uprising against the landlords was the largest and most comprehensive proletarian revolution in history, and led to almost totally-equal redistribution of land among the peasantry
:rat-salute-2: I salute for this every time like it’s an anthem.
This is my pledge of allegiance
this single sentence is my favourite post ever on this website and i upvote it every time it is posted
I have asked where it’s from about a million times and no one can ever tell me lol
Is it data on star trek? That’s I’m my head for some reason
The first time I saw it, it was on a Wikipedia-style caption on a black and white photo
child labor!
More of that in america mate, illegal in China.
internet/media censorship
You need to view this in the context of protecting the revolution. Let’s say that you have a revolution in whatever country you’re in tomorrow, are you just going to let the internet be a free space to foster and create fascist dissidents? Are you going to let foreign (capitalist) countries run your social media for you? Or are you going to limit various things in order to ensure that only domestic companies run your internet-media so that you can police them appropriately if they try to weaponise those forms of media as tools to overthrow proletarian rule and install bourgeoise rule?
I assume you’ve actually read some marx here, but if not, I want to just quote a small segment of chapter 2 of the communist manifesto at you.
The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degree, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralise all instruments of production in the hands of the State, i.e., of the proletariat organised as the ruling class; and to increase the total productive forces as rapidly as possible.
Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property, and on the conditions of bourgeois production; by means of measures, therefore, which appear economically insufficient and untenable, but which, in the course of the movement, outstrip themselves, necessitate further inroads upon the old social order, and are unavoidable as a means of entirely revolutionising the mode of production.
These measures will, of course, be different in different countries.
Nevertheless, in most advanced countries, the following will be pretty generally applicable.
- Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
- A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
- Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
- Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
- Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
- Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
- Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
- Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
- Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
- Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c.
Pay special attention to what I’ve bolded here, the paragraph and bullet point 6. The point being that centralisation and control of all media is completely in-keeping with Marx’s (and the other writers) views on the matter. Media is a tool of the bourgeoisie that costs a significant amount of money, it functions as a means of power exerted through wealth to control and influence outcomes in a state. Removing these from the bourgeoisie and centralising them in the hands of proletarian control is part of overthrowing the bourgeoisie.
The reason the bourgeoisie have propagandised you into disliking this is BECAUSE it massively harms and affects them. They wouldn’t give a shit about it if it harmed the proles, they only give a shit because it affects them.
anti-LGBTQ
China practices a bottom-up system of power. Starting at the mass line via committees and polling. This does result in slower progress on social change than a top-down approach. With that said however, lgbt issues are progressing as younger generations age up, and this more or less guarantees progress as long as the system does not change as the overall population will exert its power over time. Boomers are the thing holding it back. It is also I think fair to point out that lgbt issues are not going great in the west, with a large push for reversal well underway.
uygher genocide
Literally didn’t happen. An oppressive crackdown and re-education program? Yes sure. Genocide? No. A simple thought experiment that you should do here is to ask yourself how Israel, a country that is much much smaller with more resources to spend per population doesn’t manage to stop evidence of its crimes from occurring(see /r/israelexposed), yet what have you actually seen of China’s so-called genocide? Nothing. No refugees. No video evidence (in a country where people all have cameras). Fuck all.
What did happen was that China cracked down on islamic extremism that was being fostered through cia connections across the border with afghanistan, which the US was occupying at the time. China combatted this by undertaking an absolutely massive re-education program to raise the quality of living, jobs and prospects of susceptible people in the region. It turns out that people with good jobs don’t want to do suicide bombings.
This is obviously a topic that needs more than 2 paragraphs to dispel. Feel free to question and dig deeper. There are certainly images you’ll have seen without hearing the evidence against them, and there will be stories you’ve seen peddled from a false pov. I’m happy to go into them, I also recommend this report: https://www.qiaocollective.com/education/xinjiang
positive and pro war relations with russia! (because fuck putin)
Geopolitically speaking it is essential for China to ensure Russia doesn’t collapse or fall into the Western sphere. If it did then the result would be 50 nato bases planted on the border and China would be utterly surrounded, isolated, and any future of it as an influential power seriously hampered. It would be fucked quite frankly.
Not sure where you got the idea that they’re pro-war. They are brokering for peace. Have been the entire time.
EDIT:
OH wait I can’t believe I forgot to quote Lenin on freedom of the press
“All over the world, wherever there are capitalists, freedom of the press means freedom to buy up newspapers, to buy writers, to bribe, buy and fake “public opinion” for the benefit of the bourgeoisie.” – V I Lenin, 1921
Freedom of media just means freedom of the bourgeoisie to buy and own all means of influence in society. None of them will be proletarian unless strictly controlled to be so, all of them will be owned by some fucking billionaire or fund that answers to many millionaires.
Adding to the point about censorship:
The reason the topic of “censorship” is seen as such a taboo in Western countries is because of the belief in the “free marketplace of ideas”, a fundamental pillar of liberal democracy and liberalism in general. The idea that, if you just let everyone give their opinions and arguments, the free marketplace of ideas will ensure that only the best ideas prevail and society will improve as a result. From the liberal’s point of view, bad ideas would be filtered out anyway so censorship is unnecessary and only serves to suppress free thought.
Of course, this is nonsense. The “free marketplace of ideas” only exists in a fantasy world where everyone is arguing in good faith and is expressing their differing ideas with the genuine intent of making life better for everyone. Right-wing rhetoric, however, consists exclusively of bad faith arguments and outright lies. They have no intentions of improving society, they want to enforce their imaginary hierarchies where they are at the top and you do as they say. Their ideas are worthless and harmful through and through, but they appeal to the selfish, fearful parts in many of us that kinda like the idea of naturally being more “deserving”, simply “better” than others.
It’s like if I offered you heroin and a nutrient bar and told you “You get to choose your future diet, but you have to try both to give each a fair chance.” One is clearly better, but many would still choose the other after being exposed to it.
Right-wing ideas are harmful and worthless. They are not presented in good faith and should, in fact, be censored.
anti-LGBTQ
also much like the us, china has a lot of regional difference on lgbt rights. the shanghai branch of the party for instance has been much more vocal in pushing for progress than a western viewer would every be aware of.
Yup, rural China maybe still have some conservative view, but in urban area, there are a lot of progress. Can’t just blanket anti-lgbt entire country just because one or two province, or you have to call out the US too, they also pretty damn anti lgbt.
Okay, so I managed to not only forget my password but neglect to properly save it on my password manager so unless there’s a way to reset your password without an email by commencing in some sort of secret orgy with the mods, my main account is effectively fucked.
On a better note, I’ve read everybody’s comments and have come to the conclusion that while China isn’t perfect, it’s sure as fuck doing better than America. (obligatory fuck America, should’ve added that in the original post)
Thanks for not treating me like a troll and instead as someone who was genuinely curious. Definitely gonna be frequenting this site more often. Also, Chris Dorner did nothing wrong
Congrats on coming around faster than I did, it’s honestly pretty embarrassing thinking how much of the western propaganda I used to buy into just a few years ago
Like I knew the media was lying about Cuba and Venezuela and Palestine and even Iran but I believed a lot of the bullshit about China and the DPRK
The sort of trolls this site attracts aren’t smart or subtle enough for an act like this, ranting about being force feminized by the pumpkin spice is more their speed
The LIBERALS turned me GAY with their THEY/THEM femboys and their MASSIVE COCKS
based
I’ll bite:
CHILD LABOR: Yeah, it’s bad, but China is working to reduce and abolish it. Like most Western nations it is illegal for children under 16 to work in normal jobs. However, they have exceptions for “special circumstances”. This mostly leads to children in rural areas of China being employed on farms and such, not much unlike here in the US. It is important to remember China’s meteoric rise from a nation racked by poverty and war in the 40s to the powerhouse it is today. That’s not even 100 years. Took most everyone else a lot longer to get with the program.
CENSORSHIP: We all experience censorship all over the world. Here in the US certain views are censored from our media (our corporate media is part of the state). YouTube censors swear words. I can got on. China, like most Asian nations, cracks down hard on libel and slander. So defaming someone or spreading bullshit is censored and punished, unlike America. China is not alone in this. For instance, in Japan, you cannot even tell the truth about someone publicly if it would defame them. Like telling people your partner cheated on you. It has to be “in the public interest”. The “censorship” in China reflects this value that is shared across many Asian cultures in that region and is nothing particularly special or heinous. Most people in that region are fine with these laws because they have different views on freedom than most Westerners.
ANTI-LGBTQ: This is not particularly special to China, sadly. The US has it’s own issues here. The Arab world is a disgrace in regards to this. African nations struggle with this issue. South American nations struggle with this. Many Asian cultures struggle here as well. It is an awful truth that much of the world has a poor view on LGBTQ+ peoples and their rights and the struggle to protect the dignity of our LGBTQ+ comrades everywhere is ongoing. China is not exceptional in one way or the other here.
UYGHER GENOCIDE: Putting people in re-education camps is not good. As someone who has actually worked in corrections in the USA I can attest that in every correctional facility there are abuses that the average person would recoil from. It’s why I did it for a short time and quit. It’s why I’m an abolitionist. I am highly skeptical of the claims made about “organ harvesting” and nightly r*** because even in the most dire conditions these are particularly heinous. Remember that the guards in China are people, too, just as capable of good and evil as we are. It is also worth noting that the most vocal critics are all members of a weird cult in China and are generally only ever amplified by US propaganda outlets, for which the US media (our corporate state media) re-prints. So there is plenty of reason to be skeptical. It is also worth noting that for decades the US spent tens of millions trying to radicalize the Uyghurs into terrorists in China. So seeing our government officials here suddenly cry over their treatment while they previously wanted to turn them into suicide bombers really makes my blood boil. It is so disingenuous.
RUSSIA: Russia is a capitalist hell-hole now and the fall of the Soviet Union was one of the many tragedies of the last century. China does not have the “red scare” that the West has in regards to Russia. If you step back and look at things objectively, Russia is really no worse than many other nations, like the USA. Sure, they invaded a white nation. If only they were murdering brown people then our media wouldn’t care. But I digress, Russia is bad. Ukraine also sucks. Ukrainian people don’t deserve war. Well, nobody deserves it. China needs partners around the world that aren’t antagonistic to them and Russia is one such partner. In fact, Chinese businesses are already filling the gaps in the Russian economy since they don’t give a fuck about Western sanctions. China is looking at this from that perspective. Should they also let the average Russian suffer? Would that satisfy you?
I was not expecting such a well thought out response. As much as I would like nations to immediately become good and progressive, you brought up the point that there are many nations around the world that struggle with a lot of these things and I forgot to think about that. Thanks for your entire comment - I’ll probably be re-reading it a lot.
I want to touch on the child labor point, though: as is evident in day-to-day life in America, laws can exist without not really being enforced to the point they become virtue signaling. My point is is there any evidence that the Chinese government on their end has worked to enforce their laws?
Before I answer this I want to point out an interesting contradiction your concern raises. You propose that the Chinese government is lax in enforcement. Well, is the Chinese government an authoritarian monster who punishes citizens over the tiniest infraction or are they lax in enforcement of some of the most obvious violations of the law? When discussing China with people I notice things like this. “China bad” wins over common sense. Propaganda works, folks.
Yes, China has actually been working to reduce child labor. The thing with China is they are actually concerned about their image to the rest of the world. Child labor is a blot on them. They still have about twice as many children in the workforce as the USA or UK, but the days where they worked them like they still do in Bangladesh are over and the situation improves year by year. This is not to mean we shouldn’t be critical. We should be critical of China, the USA, the UK, and everywhere were children are abused and exploited.
Holy fuck you’re right lmao I didn’t even realize I was contradicting myself
One last thing I’d like to say in regards to “freedom” that has little to do with China:
Freedom is an interesting concept. There is an idea in the West that freedom is universal. That it’s definition is so obvious and essential to us as human beings that we must all surely think that it means the same thing to everyone. In America we even wrote down that our rights are divinely imbued to us. However, it doesn’t take much reflection on the idea to realize that this simply isn’t true. Take our free speech example early. The Japanese have plenty of people who defend the laws. For them there is an oppression in the idea that anyone can just go spreading lies and rumors about you. Or that your private mistakes, like unfaithfulness, could hurt you professionally. Any woman in the USA can explain to you what it feels like to be alone in a big city. They cannot walk down the street at 3am alone without knowing there is real danger all around them. Is that freedom? To be gripped by fear because you walked home alone after a night out? If you ask a woman in Havana if she shares this fears it is alien to her. Unheard of. The idea that she might be assaulted walking around the city at night by herself is so rare that it simply does not even cross her mind. So is freedom based around what you can do as an individual, or is it liberation from being prevented from doing normal human activities, like simply existing somewhere late at night while you are a woman? Maybe there are other views of freedom. That’s the catch, what freedom means to most Westerners is not what it means to other peoples around the world. We aren’t wrong and they aren’t either. The imperialist mind hasn’t caught up to this yet.
