I mean it’s that or burn it all down, and at our current rate of economic and ecological breakdown we don’t really have the time or resources to form a better structure.
It’s much more economical for example, to repair the climate than it would be to terraform another planet. At a much smaller scale, it’s easier to fix the system than replace it.
If we can’t even decide on basic shit like “is the earth warming at a rate that is hostile to life” or “is Taylor Swift a psyop” how are we supposed to form a new cohesive government? It’s going to be hard enough electing decent people to any structure you can think of.
I’m on board for anything better that we can realistically accomplish in the next decade that can guarantee long term prosperity for the people and also is not subject to greedy and power-hungry officials.
Better engagement in the voting process by the voting public, for a start.
Unfortunately too many Americans either pay no attention to our political system, are misled enough on its operations, or are too complacent or depressed to care.
This is the root of the issue that has allowed the current system to be so corrupt, and regardless of governmental structure this is what needs to be solved before anything else.
This is the root of the issue that has allowed the current system to be so corrupt
The system is not corrupt. The system in the US is working 100% as intended. The root of the system is capitalism. This us what living under capital is. You can’t change anything unless you understand the problem.
You want to blame the least powerful people in society for not ing hard enough, instead of looking first at the most obvious thing we should consider - how all resources are extracted, produced, and distributed in society and what that means for evetything else
Corruption is the system. The system is working as intended.
Corruption is also the problem.
Are you having that much trouble understanding?
The powers that be exist only because we allow them to. So yes, I blame the people for not being more aware of what’s going on and voicing their outrage of it.
Let’s move on to something more constructive please. What do you propose as a solution?
This is what I don’t understand with people like you. The upper class holds all the cards and shits on everyone else, but supposedly it’s the lower classes fault for being shit on? Why is it their fault?
If we can’t even decide on basic shit like “is the earth warming at a rate that is hostile to life” how are we supposed to form a new cohesive government? It’s going to be hard enough electing decent people to any structure you can think of.
You yourself are making our point for why liberal democracy cannot fix itself. We can’t form a “cohesive government” as you say within this system. That’s why its necessary for this system to end.
You will never be able to elect “decent people” because you, us, the people do not have a say in who they get to vote for. This government does not exist for us, and it is not a democracy for us. And it never will be, until the power of capital is broken
When your way has been implemented, and the system is overthrown, and all is just and fair, how are you going to protect this revolution from the next one?
As you said, the government doesn’t work for us. I don’t know of any structure that truly does because they all rely on those given power to use it responsibly and relinquish it eventually, which will always be subject to corruption.
But the alternative is anarchy, and that’s not going to work either.
how are you going to protect this revolution from the next one?
There’s an entire intellectual tradition about this called Marxism-Leninism. There are successful Marxist-Leninist governments that exist right now, including the largest nation on earth. We aren’t aren’t talking about a fantasy here, there is is over a hundred years of paractice and two hundred of theory, if you’re interested in our worldview
As you said, the government doesn’t work for us. I don’t know of any structure that truly does
Liberal democracy does not work for us - as in the people who are not in the ruling class. That isn’t because of some immutable characteristic of all governments, it is by the design of the US government and all liberal democracies.
They were designed by and to work to the benefit of the ruling class - capitalists. That’s why it doesn’t work for us. Thats the key element and that’s what we advocate for a change of. The only way to change things in through class struggle - and placing power in the hands of our class.
But the alternative is anarchy, and that’s not going to work either.
We have anarchists here and we keep the place non-sectarian. MLs would agree but not for the same reasons as you. Our disagreement is that we need the power of a state to safeguard the gains of a revolution against the global capitalist class and their state forces. Anarchists have a different view, but they understand the importance of revolutionary class struggle and disagreements aside, their theory of change is infinitely more grounded in reality than yours
China is the most obvious one, but Cuba, DPRK, Vietnam, the USSR did very well until it lost its conflict with the US.
You’re probably going to say some dumb shit like China isnt really communist, which shows you don’t know what you’re talking about, or maybe some other westoid propaganda talking point about muh authoritarianism. If that’s what you’ve got don’t bother.
You probably don’t consider these countries “successful” for some reason based on US propaganda. Great, we’ve all heard it and know its bullshit.
If you want to pretend that China is not currently the most successful nation on earth, the world’s largest democracy, and led by a Marxist Leninist party, cool. Most of the west likes to pretend that shit to. It doesn’t change reality, and no one here wants to hear about your lib fantasy world
Corruption is a fundamental problem of any system of governance, and it reaches a point where the only route to defeat it is to kill the fucking cheats who set it up.
Voting is nit going to fix a system that has intentionally broken voting to invalidate you. Only revolution can do that.
Okay, so we’re in the same place. Replacing the current system with something better may get corrupted, but so may status quo. So has status quo.
We don’t want revolution because we think everything would perfect and incorruptible in that future, but because a fresh start affords us aon opportunity to reflect upon our foundational mistakes and do build something great from the ground up.
And this is how it works with any project. Sometimes the movie isnt coming together and fixing costs more than starting over. Sometimes your drawing has fundamental issues that can’t be fixed by small tweaks, and entire sections or pieces need to be cleared or restarted afresh.
Trying to fix this system certainly is a thing you can try, and many people here have. I spent 35-odd years of my life as a diehard Democrat. I caucused locally and helped my mayor get elected. I didn’t come to my position today from a lack of consideration. I think we’d all prefer this shit to be fixed as easily as possible, and no good marxist is under the impression that revolutions are simple, painless things to attempt.
Being liberal is about keeping an open mind, yeah? Like openmindedness is a central principle to modern liberal political philosophy. Keep that energy. Let your mind be open to what the left suggests. I’m not under the impression I can talk you into leftism, but it doesnt hurt you to consider what the left has to offer to your personal philosophy
What’s sad is that you think you’re the one being realistic, when your theory of change is complete fantasy.
What we’re talking about has been done and accomplished before and exists in the real world, including the largest nation on earth. What you’re talking about has never happened
Well, the US has a form of capitalism that has led to as much success as any other system in that it has allowed more of its people to be more prosperous for longer than any other system in history, but I wouldn’t exactly say it’s “working”.
By that definition no system does, and none will without substantially better active engagement by the people in electoral processes and complete accountability in elected officials to do the job they were hired to do.
The Soviet Union lasted for decades and at the time was on the cutting edge of science, math, industry, social sciences etc and became the second leading superpower only 20 years after forming. Pretty successful if you ask me. It took the US over 100 years to do anything similar.
Then there’s China which is looking to be even more successful than that.
You’ve got it. Just
harder lib
I mean it’s that or burn it all down, and at our current rate of economic and ecological breakdown we don’t really have the time or resources to form a better structure.
It’s much more economical for example, to repair the climate than it would be to terraform another planet. At a much smaller scale, it’s easier to fix the system than replace it.
If we can’t even decide on basic shit like “is the earth warming at a rate that is hostile to life” or “is Taylor Swift a psyop” how are we supposed to form a new cohesive government? It’s going to be hard enough electing decent people to any structure you can think of.
Which is why we need to do a slow incrementalism by voting?
I’m on board for anything better that we can realistically accomplish in the next decade that can guarantee long term prosperity for the people and also is not subject to greedy and power-hungry officials.
Let me paraphrase what you said for you:
“I will eat shit forever because the people forcefeeding me shit taught me that any alternative involves me eating shit AND drinking piss”
Paraphrase all you want, that doesn’t give you a point or mean you’re being accurate doing it lol.
Come back when you have a constructive comment. But I doubt that exists on this instance.
Is your goal being here to spread your beliefs? Cause this kind of comment isn’t effective at getting people on board.
Our only goal is to piss you off personally, and we’re doing a damn fine job
I’m on board with it. Sounds like a you problem
And this is achieved through voting how? We need a radical in the white house by november.
Better engagement in the voting process by the voting public, for a start.
Unfortunately too many Americans either pay no attention to our political system, are misled enough on its operations, or are too complacent or depressed to care.
This is the root of the issue that has allowed the current system to be so corrupt, and regardless of governmental structure this is what needs to be solved before anything else.
The system is not corrupt. The system in the US is working 100% as intended. The root of the system is capitalism. This us what living under capital is. You can’t change anything unless you understand the problem.
You want to blame the least powerful people in society for not
ing hard enough, instead of looking first at the most obvious thing we should consider - how all resources are extracted, produced, and distributed in society and what that means for evetything else
Corruption is the system. The system is working as intended.
Corruption is also the problem.
Are you having that much trouble understanding?
The powers that be exist only because we allow them to. So yes, I blame the people for not being more aware of what’s going on and voicing their outrage of it.
Let’s move on to something more constructive please. What do you propose as a solution?
Clearly the least powerful people need to just
really, really hard.
Go fuck yourself you dipshit
Why did you completely disregard their point about capitalism? Also how does your point NOT mean the solution is obviously revolution?
This is what I don’t understand with people like you. The upper class holds all the cards and shits on everyone else, but supposedly it’s the lower classes fault for being shit on? Why is it their fault?
You yourself are making our point for why liberal democracy cannot fix itself. We can’t form a “cohesive government” as you say within this system. That’s why its necessary for this system to end.
You will never be able to elect “decent people” because you, us, the people do not have a say in who they get to vote for. This government does not exist for us, and it is not a democracy for us. And it never will be, until the power of capital is broken
When your way has been implemented, and the system is overthrown, and all is just and fair, how are you going to protect this revolution from the next one?
As you said, the government doesn’t work for us. I don’t know of any structure that truly does because they all rely on those given power to use it responsibly and relinquish it eventually, which will always be subject to corruption.
But the alternative is anarchy, and that’s not going to work either.
There’s an entire intellectual tradition about this called Marxism-Leninism. There are successful Marxist-Leninist governments that exist right now, including the largest nation on earth. We aren’t aren’t talking about a fantasy here, there is is over a hundred years of paractice and two hundred of theory, if you’re interested in our worldview
Liberal democracy does not work for us - as in the people who are not in the ruling class. That isn’t because of some immutable characteristic of all governments, it is by the design of the US government and all liberal democracies.
They were designed by and to work to the benefit of the ruling class - capitalists. That’s why it doesn’t work for us. Thats the key element and that’s what we advocate for a change of. The only way to change things in through class struggle - and placing power in the hands of our class.
We have anarchists here and we keep the place non-sectarian. MLs would agree but not for the same reasons as you. Our disagreement is that we need the power of a state to safeguard the gains of a revolution against the global capitalist class and their state forces. Anarchists have a different view, but they understand the importance of revolutionary class struggle and disagreements aside, their theory of change is infinitely more grounded in reality than yours
How would you define a successful Marxist-Leninist government and which is it?
China is the most obvious one, but Cuba, DPRK, Vietnam, the USSR did very well until it lost its conflict with the US.
You’re probably going to say some dumb shit like China isnt really communist, which shows you don’t know what you’re talking about, or maybe some other westoid propaganda talking point about muh authoritarianism. If that’s what you’ve got don’t bother.
You probably don’t consider these countries “successful” for some reason based on US propaganda. Great, we’ve all heard it and know its bullshit.
If you want to pretend that China is not currently the most successful nation on earth, the world’s largest democracy, and led by a Marxist Leninist party, cool. Most of the west likes to pretend that shit to. It doesn’t change reality, and no one here wants to hear about your lib fantasy world
When did China become a democracy? It’s not communist? I thought you said it was?
I love how you didn’t even give me the opportunity to weigh in on your answers before defending them. You must be real fun at parties.
Socialism is democratic dumbass. Its not liberal democracy - its people’s democracy.
Because you libs all say the same dumb shit
Corruption is a fundamental problem of any system of governance, and it reaches a point where the only route to defeat it is to kill the fucking cheats who set it up.
Voting is nit going to fix a system that has intentionally broken voting to invalidate you. Only revolution can do that.
Right, when that revolution is over what is to keep that new perfect system from being corrupted again?
Why bother trying to do anything ever if everything we do is doomed?
Because the alternative is much more sad.
I’d rather go out knowing I tried what I could while I was here.
Just because something isn’t perfect doesn’t mean it isn’t worth doing, and nothing worth having comes easy.
Okay, so we’re in the same place. Replacing the current system with something better may get corrupted, but so may status quo. So has status quo.
We don’t want revolution because we think everything would perfect and incorruptible in that future, but because a fresh start affords us aon opportunity to reflect upon our foundational mistakes and do build something great from the ground up.
And this is how it works with any project. Sometimes the movie isnt coming together and fixing costs more than starting over. Sometimes your drawing has fundamental issues that can’t be fixed by small tweaks, and entire sections or pieces need to be cleared or restarted afresh.
Trying to fix this system certainly is a thing you can try, and many people here have. I spent 35-odd years of my life as a diehard Democrat. I caucused locally and helped my mayor get elected. I didn’t come to my position today from a lack of consideration. I think we’d all prefer this shit to be fixed as easily as possible, and no good marxist is under the impression that revolutions are simple, painless things to attempt.
Being liberal is about keeping an open mind, yeah? Like openmindedness is a central principle to modern liberal political philosophy. Keep that energy. Let your mind be open to what the left suggests. I’m not under the impression I can talk you into leftism, but it doesnt hurt you to consider what the left has to offer to your personal philosophy
this is just sad.
What’s sad is that you think you’re the one being realistic, when your theory of change is complete fantasy.
What we’re talking about has been done and accomplished before and exists in the real world, including the largest nation on earth. What you’re talking about has never happened
Please provide me an example of communism working on a long-term scale and how you define “working”.
People’s Republic of China. Worlds largest democracy. Largest manufacturing nation - poised to be world’s largest economy. Seems pretty successful
A communist democratic nation that denies it’s own rebellions?
Communism is democratic. The USSR, Cuba, Vietnam, China all have democracy. If you knew what you were talking about you would know that.
Can you name an example of capitalism working
Well, the US has a form of capitalism that has led to as much success as any other system in that it has allowed more of its people to be more prosperous for longer than any other system in history, but I wouldn’t exactly say it’s “working”.
By that definition no system does, and none will without substantially better active engagement by the people in electoral processes and complete accountability in elected officials to do the job they were hired to do.
Your turn.
https://archive.org/details/HumanRightsInTheSovietUnion/page/n75/mode/2up
The Soviet Union lasted for decades and at the time was on the cutting edge of science, math, industry, social sciences etc and became the second leading superpower only 20 years after forming. Pretty successful if you ask me. It took the US over 100 years to do anything similar.
Then there’s China which is looking to be even more successful than that.