Just a quick shower thought (I am literally typing this in the shower)
I think it might hit closer to home, because the insult (accusing someone of being loyal to the empire) is less abstract than insulting someone for having an unscientific world-view. Another benefit is that it makes us seem less like conservatives, and is harder to coopt by patsocs.
Obviously, the insult will probably only become effective if it spreads so that people know what is being referred to. And obviously, liberalism is still a menace.
What do you guys think?
I think how much i agree with you depends on how far you take this. Does this position extend to debating with hateful beliefs as well? I’m askin’, do you go as far as to disagree with the paradox of tolerance?
The paradox of tolerance is this: “Defending tolerance requires to not tolerate the intolerant”. It sounds like a paradox, but I don’t think it is, “tolerance” is just poorly defined.
The Cambridge dictionary defines tolerance as the “willingness to accept behaviour and beliefs that are different from your own, although you might not agree with or approve of them”.
First of, this definition does not differentiate between behaviours that harm others and behaviours that don’t.
Secondly it is not clear what “accepting” means or rather what “not accepting” would entail.
Thirdly, it doesn’t cover racism, which is not about beliefs or behaviour, but identity.
And fourth: It doesn’t differentiate between accepting beliefs and accepting behaviours.
So, here is how I feel about the paradox of tolerance: Fundamentaly, I agree. We do not have to tolerate racism or homophobia etc. Personally, i think we should accept all kinds of beliefs, even that of bigots. We cannot make it a crime to have certain thoughts, only actions/behaviours should be punishable. For actions/behaviours my take is this: as long as it doesn’t harm anyone, it should be tolerated. Any behaviour that harms others, in turn, should not be tolerated.
Here’s the thing though, what do insults have to do with any of this? I will fight physical violence when I see it, be it racially, politically, or otherwise motivated, but why would I need insults for that?
This is where it gets hairy, since allowing hateful thoughts to be spoken causes real hateful violent actions/behaviors from those they incite. By respecting this “right of bigoted ideas to be received respectfully”, the creators of this violence are free to act the way we know they do, that is with no respect for human life. Worse, they avoid blame for what they directly cause thru their hate.
The paradox of debating with those whose beliefs are hateful is: where does it stop being useful and become hurtful? When does being respectful towards hateful ideas become disrespectful to the targets of that hate? Is it possible that by treating hateful ideas respectfully at all you validate them as beliefs that respectable people have?
I think we would both agree there’s a vileness line somewhere, yeah? Where you’d stop entertaining their reasoning and shut down debate?
Maybe we even agree on where that line is.
Insults are useful i think and as you say, that’s where we don’t.
Why shouldn’t hateful ideas be made fun of? People entertaining hateful ideas are watching and learning how the world will react to themselves doing the same. Shitheads being treated respectfully makes the watcher believe the ideas are worth respecting. Gets them thinking “respectfully” is how their hateful words will be received. Gets them closer to repeating them louder.
What possible good things can come from allowing hate to be respected? Treat hateful racist ideas with the same respect as flat-earthers, because the idea itself and the people that hold them are foolish.
And why not hurt them? I suppose you don’t have a problem with their hurt feelings, but the effectiveness of this tactic, right? I can probably find historical evidence that shame is effective social tool if you want.
Just imagine if Musk (for example) had to do a parade through the streets like cercei in GoT, televised round the globe.
Betcha he’d shut his gob then, huh?
And the world would be better for it. Shameful ideas deserve shame and shame is an effective tool. Every effective tool used against facism is a morally just tool.