To my knowledge (which has gaps), there’s never been a leftist revolution over a functioning democracy that left the situation better than it started, so I’m under the impression that we’re in never happened territory whether advocating for reform or revolution. Plenty of right-wing groups have overthrown democracies, though, and plenty of right-wing groups have taken over in the aftermath of non-right-wing revolutions, so there’s a need to make sure there are still enough leftists left alive to still be the majority.
Even if reform is a doomed goal, it’s a more achievable to get the population of a democracy to a point where they could try voting in a leftist government than to throw out everything (and potentially die in the process) and start again. If they lose the vote, then it’s a strong indication that a majority of people participating would be fighting against them in a revolution, and more people need bringing on board. If they win the vote, and still don’t gain power, then it’s a great time to start a revolution, as this is exactly the kind of thing that whips up revolutionary fervour in people who normally would advocate solely for reform. The situation where reform could theoretically happen is a great environment for a revolution if it turns out that reform can’t happen, so it’s easy to pivot if it doesn’t work. It might turn out not to be a doomed goal, though, and they might just end up in power immediately, with state institutions composed of voters who want to believe their votes counted potentially taking the new government’s side if the outgoing government or their supporters didn’t concede.
Either way, the main tool used to keep power in a democracy is to sway public opinion so voters vote against their own interests, and swaying public opinion also works to make people revolt against their own interests or fight against a revolt that’s in their own interests. The debate is moot if half of people read The Daily Mail or watch Fox News, and if there’s a tool that can stop that happening and take away bourgeois power that way, it can probably take it away in other ways.
I’m entirely unsure of what you’re referring to in your first paragraph, it’s so vague it doesn’t say anything at all IMO. Moreover, you’ve casually brushed aside the idea that bourgeois electoralism allows voting on leftist groups, you’ve witnessed the progressive pushback against leftists voting third party in the US election despite claiming to support the third parties more ideologically. Electoralism is a fixed game. I’m really not sure what you’re trying to say with this comment, it seems utterly vibes based.
You were the one alluding to historical leftist revolutions over democracies, so if you don’t know what I’m referring to when I say that I’m not aware of that ever happening, that’s an indication that we’re both referring to nothing because it’s never happened. If you don’t know what I’m referring to when I mention right-wing groups overthrowing democracies, there are plenty of examples like Iran in 1953, when the elected government was overthrown by an authoritarian monarchy in a coup backed by Britain and the US. If you don’t know what I’m referring to when I mention right-wing groups taking over after a non-right-wing revolution, then there are lots of examples like Iran in 1979, where a broad coalition overthrew the Shah, then the right-wing religious authoritarian faction had the leaders of other groups assassinated so they could form the new government. The big changes were just which countries Iran was allied with, which music and art was legal, and traditional religious dress for women switching from being banned to being mandated.
The pushback against voting third-party in the US presidential election this year was specifically because the voting block that wanted to vote third party was small enough that even if fully mobilised, it’d still be a third party. Whether or not they were the best option, they’d lose, so they weren’t an option in this particular election, and lesser-of-two-evils voting was more prudent. The campaigning didn’t start soon enough or strong enough, and then totally stopped once the election happened, and it takes more than a few months to build enough support to accomplish anything in an election. That wasn’t a problem with elections specifically, though. If third-party supporters had decided to have a revolution the day after the results were called, it would have failed, too, as not enough people were in favour of the policies, let alone so in favour as to revolt over it.
You have no clearly defined idea of what a “functional democracy” is, nor have you addressed that what you can vote for in a bourgeois system is restrained to that which props it up regardless. The third party voters are demonized for abandoning the Democrats, but without commitment to abandoning them we cannot accurately tell whether or not a third party truly would have popular support. America has one of the lowest rates of voting because it changes the least. Furthermore, I am saying leftist revolutions have dramatically improved existing conditions time and time again.
To my knowledge (which has gaps), there’s never been a leftist revolution over a functioning democracy that left the situation better than it started, so I’m under the impression that we’re in never happened territory whether advocating for reform or revolution. Plenty of right-wing groups have overthrown democracies, though, and plenty of right-wing groups have taken over in the aftermath of non-right-wing revolutions, so there’s a need to make sure there are still enough leftists left alive to still be the majority.
Even if reform is a doomed goal, it’s a more achievable to get the population of a democracy to a point where they could try voting in a leftist government than to throw out everything (and potentially die in the process) and start again. If they lose the vote, then it’s a strong indication that a majority of people participating would be fighting against them in a revolution, and more people need bringing on board. If they win the vote, and still don’t gain power, then it’s a great time to start a revolution, as this is exactly the kind of thing that whips up revolutionary fervour in people who normally would advocate solely for reform. The situation where reform could theoretically happen is a great environment for a revolution if it turns out that reform can’t happen, so it’s easy to pivot if it doesn’t work. It might turn out not to be a doomed goal, though, and they might just end up in power immediately, with state institutions composed of voters who want to believe their votes counted potentially taking the new government’s side if the outgoing government or their supporters didn’t concede.
Either way, the main tool used to keep power in a democracy is to sway public opinion so voters vote against their own interests, and swaying public opinion also works to make people revolt against their own interests or fight against a revolt that’s in their own interests. The debate is moot if half of people read The Daily Mail or watch Fox News, and if there’s a tool that can stop that happening and take away bourgeois power that way, it can probably take it away in other ways.
I’m entirely unsure of what you’re referring to in your first paragraph, it’s so vague it doesn’t say anything at all IMO. Moreover, you’ve casually brushed aside the idea that bourgeois electoralism allows voting on leftist groups, you’ve witnessed the progressive pushback against leftists voting third party in the US election despite claiming to support the third parties more ideologically. Electoralism is a fixed game. I’m really not sure what you’re trying to say with this comment, it seems utterly vibes based.
You were the one alluding to historical leftist revolutions over democracies, so if you don’t know what I’m referring to when I say that I’m not aware of that ever happening, that’s an indication that we’re both referring to nothing because it’s never happened. If you don’t know what I’m referring to when I mention right-wing groups overthrowing democracies, there are plenty of examples like Iran in 1953, when the elected government was overthrown by an authoritarian monarchy in a coup backed by Britain and the US. If you don’t know what I’m referring to when I mention right-wing groups taking over after a non-right-wing revolution, then there are lots of examples like Iran in 1979, where a broad coalition overthrew the Shah, then the right-wing religious authoritarian faction had the leaders of other groups assassinated so they could form the new government. The big changes were just which countries Iran was allied with, which music and art was legal, and traditional religious dress for women switching from being banned to being mandated.
The pushback against voting third-party in the US presidential election this year was specifically because the voting block that wanted to vote third party was small enough that even if fully mobilised, it’d still be a third party. Whether or not they were the best option, they’d lose, so they weren’t an option in this particular election, and lesser-of-two-evils voting was more prudent. The campaigning didn’t start soon enough or strong enough, and then totally stopped once the election happened, and it takes more than a few months to build enough support to accomplish anything in an election. That wasn’t a problem with elections specifically, though. If third-party supporters had decided to have a revolution the day after the results were called, it would have failed, too, as not enough people were in favour of the policies, let alone so in favour as to revolt over it.
You have no clearly defined idea of what a “functional democracy” is, nor have you addressed that what you can vote for in a bourgeois system is restrained to that which props it up regardless. The third party voters are demonized for abandoning the Democrats, but without commitment to abandoning them we cannot accurately tell whether or not a third party truly would have popular support. America has one of the lowest rates of voting because it changes the least. Furthermore, I am saying leftist revolutions have dramatically improved existing conditions time and time again.