• uniqueid198x@lemmy.dbzer0.com
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    9
    ·
    1 year ago

    The characterization of china as state capitalism? You know, I hadn’t ever gatten a first hand source for it, so you did inspire me to check my understanding.

    Its a central tenant and a core part of Xi Jiping thought. It was unanimously affirmed at the 20th party constitution convention. Some key highlights:

    • the system under which public ownership is the mainstay and diverse forms of ownership develop together
    • the socialist market economy
    • efforts to foster a new pattern of development that is focused on the domestic economy and features positive interplay between domestic and international economic flows

    you can read it yourself in the resolution on Party Constitution amendment

      • uniqueid198x@lemmy.dbzer0.com
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        7
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        My understanding of it is a system of ownership and direction of enterprizes, where the state participates as a capitalist and as managenent, either wholely or in concert with private ownership.

        You know, like Lennin meant

        edit to add: Lennin was certainly against any private participation in capitalism, but the soviet party did loosen that with parastroika, and the Chinese Communist party started with, I believe, Deng Xiaping Thought, tho I would have to double chetk that it didn’t start earlier

          • uniqueid198x@lemmy.dbzer0.com
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            7
            ·
            1 year ago

            Thanks, that did help deepen my understanding. Its good to see that the current thought remains commited to socialism and recognizes the miss-steps of the past, and is continuing to iterate towards a more equitable future.

            Perhaps one day they will achieve it. I certainly hope they do. As of yet, the state capitalism approach to building socialism has had a number of mistakes and limited success, such that I still remain skeptical of it.

            • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.net
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              14
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              I think the important element here is simply to understand that the DOTP is secure, arguably much more secure than it has ever been in the past. As long as it remains secure I think incremental improvements are always going to occur.

              I do not agree with using this term “state capitalism” and think it was a mistake for it to have ever been used in the past to describe anything within a socialist state. Capitalism is, by definition, a state controlled by the capitalists. Socialism is, by definition, a state that is not controlled by the capitalists but by the people, working towards the goal of communism. All states under a DOTP are socialist regardless of the current economic mode of production, what percentage is marketised, etc etc.

              Ultimately we probably won’t agree on this point though. Just please be wary that it’s a contentious and likely sectarian point of disagreement that is liable to blow up into a struggle session whenever it’s raised. I don’t really mind so much whether we disagree on it though just so long as you’re not actively trying to destroy these states, which would only help the capitalists at the end of the day, not to mention ruin the lives of 1.7billion people with a 1990s-like collapse on a terrifying scale.

              • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.net
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                9
                ·
                1 year ago

                I mean, I think their reading of Lenin is correct but they are just applying it carelessly. This is why I always say “liberalism” to describe the political system is more useful.

                • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.net
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  5
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  Yeah it’s not so bad. I just think that Lenin was in the wrong using the phrase to begin with, and that we seem to all acknowledge it’s a shit phrase by not using it, and instead using “socialism” or “AES” to describe states doing this.

                  In my experience people that want to adhere to Lenin’s term are usually doing so because they want to imply that these states aren’t socialism and that they are just capitalism. This is where we can easily get into conflicts.

                  • uniqueid198x@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    2
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    To clarify, I was not trying to do this. I was, and do, talk about it as a socialist strategy. I don’t call it socialism alone, because that erases other, non-statist forms of socialism such as cooperativism, syndicalism, or parecon. We might call this “state socialism”, but I have found that term to be less understood than “state capitalsm”

            • silent_water [she/her]@hexbear.net
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              11
              ·
              1 year ago

              listen to season 2 of Blowback on Cuba. American policy radicalized the revolution and forced them from a more reformist stance, into ML orthodoxy, and they’ve achieved a tremendous amount while under seige from the US.

        • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.net
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          12
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          You are correct on what state capitalism is, but that flies in the face of the cases discussed. Perestroika USSR is not Lenin’s USSR, but one that suffered from decades of revisionist rot that started before Stalin’s corpse was even cold.

          Normal-ass private citizen capitalists are anathema to Lenin’s state capitalist model, the whole point was for the state to take that mantle in order to remove the existence of an independent capitalist class. I don’t think this was correct, and in fact a pretty catastrophic failure of grasping counterfactual class antagonism, but it is what it is.

          China’s model is officially called (among other things) “state socialism”, so named because the primary role of the state is not to nullify and supplant the capitalist class but rather to subjugate it at the direction of the proletariat. We can say in a looser sense that things like it’s public enterprise in oil are “state capitalist”, but the PRC overall is not a state capitalist entity.