https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/comment/2135509

this is practically a child’s view of the world. good guy vs bad guy. Russia = bad, NATO = good. plus, someone should tell her she has it completely backwards: ending russia is kinda natos entire thing

  • CyborgMarx [any, any]@hexbear.net
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    16
    ·
    1 year ago

    It’s not just obsolete equipment, in most NATO countries it’s the only equipment these countries have, and there’s no definition of “obsolete” that includes Himars, patriots, strykers, Bradleys, Ceasars, Leopards, Challengers, those are the mainstays of western armaments, and there is no such thing as “cheap” modernization, especially not when it comes to the US arms industry

    Absolutely not true. The EU has managed to recover from the pipelines turning off, and have built up LNG terminals to keep on chugging without issue.

    What you’re asserting simply isn’t true, https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/europe-facing-costly-winter-without-enough-long-term-lng-deals-2023-04-06/

    https://apnews.com/article/europe-business-germany-weather-european-union-9b1e7c90542b8dd6ab5b9bae47c65d95

    The German manufacturing PMI index has sunk to 38.8 (50 is supposed to signal recession), that’s the lowest level since 2020 at 32.0 during the height of the Covid depression

    And that’s the top performing economy in Europe right now

    • Barbariandude [he/him]@hexbear.net
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      12
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      The number of modern systems in play is tiny. The vast majority of the aid has been old systems. 4 HIMARS and 50 Bradleys are hardly going to deplete US supply, let’s be real here.

      About the various links, none of that contradicts what I’m saying. I didn’t say that this had no cost, quite on the contrary. I said that EU funds buying up supply will hurt more than the EU, and the EU does have the cash to afford this.

      About the PMI, your own link does not connect this to the energy sector. It connects this to weaker demand for goods. Comparing and contrasting with Italy, France, Czech Republic, Poland and Romania shows a similar story: companies are dropping production due to expectations that demand is dipping as people are tightening their purses.

      • CyborgMarx [any, any]@hexbear.net
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        11
        ·
        1 year ago

        The number of modern systems in play is tiny.

        Bro what are you talking about?

        4 HIMARS and 50 Bradleys are hardly going to deplete US supply

        That’s incorrect it’s 38+ Himars and 186 Bradleys so far from the US alone, also I’m not only talking about US stockpiles, I said “NATO countries” and it’s not the launcher systems that are in danger of being depleted, it’s the ammunition they fire

        It connects this to weaker demand for goods. Comparing and contrasting with Italy, France, Czech Republic, Poland and Romania shows a similar story: companies are dropping production due to expectations that demand is dipping as people are tightening their purses.

        Yes, weaker consumer demand because the money in those tight purses are going to personnel energy costs which have skyrocketed again despite the summer dip, hence the recession numbers across the board, there’s no sector of the economy that doesn’t affect the others

        • Barbariandude [he/him]@hexbear.net
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          11
          ·
          1 year ago

          Sorry, I was looking at old numbers. 38 HIMARS and 186 bradleys is no danger to US stockpiles either. Ammo though, that’s a more interesting question. Arms industries are ramping up production like mad. This is an absolute godsend for arms companies. This isn’t hurting NATO, this is lining the pockets of military industrial sectors worldwide.

          On the financial front, I’m rapidly reaching the limit of my knowledge. I will concede the point, but warn that at least in the east, people are willing to absorb a lot of financial pain if it means punching the Russian empire in the face. Western Europe may be forced, kicking and screaming, to follow suit for fear of fracturing Europe.

          • CyborgMarx [any, any]@hexbear.net
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            6
            ·
            1 year ago

            This is an absolute godsend for arms companies. This isn’t hurting NATO, this is lining the pockets of military industrial sectors worldwide.

            When I say NATO I’m naively including Europe and not simply the United States, US arms companies are indeed making dough and the Euro regimes may even be willing to print out the big bucks for the American MIC, but those countries also have native defense industries that make up a sizable chunk of their national manufacturing sectors, and I’m telling you right now bro there is no way the cheapskate ordoliberals of Europe are gonna pay for two continent wide modernization programs, it’s either the Americans or their own local arms companies and the Americans are gonna win out

            but warn that at least in the east, people are willing to absorb a lot of financial pain if it means punching the Russian empire in the face Western Europe may be forced, kicking and screaming, to follow suit for fear of fracturing Europe.

            Translation; the neoliberal regimes of Europe are willing to sacrifice the livelihoods of their citizens to further the ambitions of an American dominated NATO and sow the seeds of future war and the inevitable blowback it entails

            • Barbariandude [he/him]@hexbear.net
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              4
              ·
              1 year ago

              It’s not only the US industry ramping up. Companies across Europe are expanding existing ammo factories and making new ones. With the blank cheque that Ukraine has been given by the US, they’re not doing this for free.

              You can cynically look at this as “sacrificing the livelihoods of citizens”, and I’m not going to stop you if you want to see it that way, but in some specific countries, any sign of weakness towards Russia by a politician would cause that politician to be thrown out. If not by vote of no confidence, then by mob.

              • CyborgMarx [any, any]@hexbear.net
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                2
                ·
                1 year ago

                You’re contradicting yourself because you’re not being specific, it’s not “companies across europe” it’s the native defense industries of only a few countries, Germany, France, UK and maybe Italy none are which the insane eastern states that would lynch a politican for negotiating with russia

                The rest would blow a hole in their budget if they attempted to expand local industrial production of weapons beyond a certain point

                And the big countries don’t want to expand cause that will also blow a hole in their budget, Europe is ruled by Americanized ordoliberals, the cratering of millions of their citizen’s livelihoods didn’t stop them from cutting the state and a proxy war in Ukraine isn’t gonna stop them either

                They’ll waste money on expensive overenineered American garbage and then call it a day and the Eastern states can go back to the Soviet Union to replenish their stock- oh wait no they can’t they’ll also have to buy trash Anerican weapon systems