To be fair, kernel level access by third party software is kind of frowned upon in the Linux world. Ask any desktop Linux user how they feel about NVIDIA (the only third party kernel code an average Linux user will install) and their drivers randomly causing strange issues on their systems up to and including kernel panics compared to the experience on AMD where the driver is open and built into the kernel itself. For security software that needs low level visibility, there is eBPF, direct kernel level access isn’t needed (though I believe CrowdStrike uses it, and thay actually did CrowdStrike Debian and Rocky Linux systems some time back).
MacOS blocked the majority of kernel extensions a few years ago as well.
Windows is the only OS where it has been designed in a way where kernel level access is the rule rather than the exception. So design flaws are at least partially at fault here.
The opinion of Linux desktop users (or any users really) do not count in the enterprise world. Somehow, if management bought in on the Crowdstrike rootkit bandwagon, you’ll see it on corporate hardware. It doesn’t matter if it’s a bad plan; it doesn’t matter if it gives an American company a backdoor to all you infrastructure; if the CISO decides everyone gets it, everyone get it.
The only thing you can really do as a lowly employee is keep any such device away from any personal info or network as if it’s infected by malware (which I would argue is exactly what it is).
Heard from someone else (so take it with a grain of salt) that CrowdStrike and/or similar companies threatened Microsoft with an antitrust suit when Microsoft tried to force them to use an API instead of working directly with the kernel.
Crowdstrike released bad code into prod without giving it some hours of testing in local machines or whatever. Incredible fuckup, inimaginable. But, let’s not take blame out of Microsoft, if a driver is faulty the system should be resilient enough no to crap the bed on login. At least enough for IT to be able to remotely access the system and fix it. The manual work the IT world has had to do because it’s lost remote access to workstations is insane.
Basically, crowdstrike wrote bad code that run as a driver, windows doesn’t like bad code in their drivers. Kernel level code is generally expected to run properly. crowdstrike’s kernel level code was really bad. Embarrassingly bad.
If the host creates a playlist and everyone can add their favorite song to the playlist, the host won’t be blamed if you add “erika”. People rightfully think you are an ignorant weirdo or a bad person, not the host.
Except that the playlists are super complex and there is no way to make sure. Like building an engine and having to make sure that no 3rd party accessory will break it. Like the parented “sand injector”.
The problem with CrowdStrike’s solution is that they got csagent.sys driver signed by WHQL, and the driver will download p-code from the internet and execute it. This allows them to push out changes without waiting for Microsoft approval.
The biggest problem occurs when you don’t sanitize your inputs and someone accidentally uploads a blank file padded with zeroes. The driver dereferences a null value, and crashes your system. Hard.
I don’t want to argue with you and I admit that my phrasing wasn’t ideal but I assumed that it was obvious that i was talking about everything that would be executed on the machine. Apparently it wasn’t.
Doesn’t Microsoft allow crowdstrike to make updates? Being such a critical part of the OS it’s up to Microsoft to ensure their procedures are robust and being followed.
How do you implement that? How is it feasible that Microsoft tests all the third party drivers?
Don’t get me wrong I believe Microsoft is partly to blame for this problem as well but for making it so hard for system admins to go around the system and solve things (as compared to Linux where you can do anything). I think sys admins would have solved this much faster if they were using Linux systems
I was just probing your argument because I guessed it was the typical nonsense of Microsoft bad, Linux good, without a good explanation
I think if it’s going on every windows computer windows should have a process in place to prevent what happened from happening. Windows are for profit, they have the money to do it right but they got greedy. A staggered rollout would have prevented most of it and is a very simple thing to require.
Also if it’s going on every windows computer or most I wouldn’t consider that a third party anymore even if that’s how they keep liabilities at arms length
It’s not, its just popular. Its not windows job to police what software you choose to run on it.
However Windows does actually have an optional certification program called WHQL for kernal level drivers. Getting this certification lets updates get posted via windows’ internal updater. It checks the driver calls apis correctly and doesn’t misbehave with interrupt handling among other tests. Crowdstrike driver did pass this, and in fact there was no bug with the driver, the bug was with the configuration file. The configuration file updates about once an hour (and it really needs to do that), and does so outside the windows update process, making windows powerless to control its rollout. whql certification takes a few days to run and configuration files aren’t really in scope.
Same thing would happen on Linux if someone wrote a bad kernel module and integrated it into the OS. In fact, Crowdstrike did have a similar problem a few months ago on Linux.
I’m no fan of Microsoft, but this isn’t their fault.
That is true. The issue is that because there are so many permission escalation issues in windows, that many anti malware products must run as kernel drivers.
So why is this considered a crowdstrike issue and not a Microsoft fuckup?
Windows: exists
Crowdstrike: stabs
You: why would Microsoft stab themselves?
To be fair, kernel level access by third party software is kind of frowned upon in the Linux world. Ask any desktop Linux user how they feel about NVIDIA (the only third party kernel code an average Linux user will install) and their drivers randomly causing strange issues on their systems up to and including kernel panics compared to the experience on AMD where the driver is open and built into the kernel itself. For security software that needs low level visibility, there is eBPF, direct kernel level access isn’t needed (though I believe CrowdStrike uses it, and thay actually did CrowdStrike Debian and Rocky Linux systems some time back).
MacOS blocked the majority of kernel extensions a few years ago as well.
Windows is the only OS where it has been designed in a way where kernel level access is the rule rather than the exception. So design flaws are at least partially at fault here.
I’m so glad i got rid of my nvidia card. Having to reinstall the divers and kernel-headers every time my kernel updated was getting old.
The opinion of Linux desktop users (or any users really) do not count in the enterprise world. Somehow, if management bought in on the Crowdstrike rootkit bandwagon, you’ll see it on corporate hardware. It doesn’t matter if it’s a bad plan; it doesn’t matter if it gives an American company a backdoor to all you infrastructure; if the CISO decides everyone gets it, everyone get it.
The only thing you can really do as a lowly employee is keep any such device away from any personal info or network as if it’s infected by malware (which I would argue is exactly what it is).
Heard from someone else (so take it with a grain of salt) that CrowdStrike and/or similar companies threatened Microsoft with an antitrust suit when Microsoft tried to force them to use an API instead of working directly with the kernel.
Windows: exists
Crowdstrike: exists
Windows: open belly, right here!
Crowdstrike: stabs
Crowdstrike released bad code into prod without giving it some hours of testing in local machines or whatever. Incredible fuckup, inimaginable. But, let’s not take blame out of Microsoft, if a driver is faulty the system should be resilient enough no to crap the bed on login. At least enough for IT to be able to remotely access the system and fix it. The manual work the IT world has had to do because it’s lost remote access to workstations is insane.
Nelson Muntz: Stop striking yourself!
Basically, crowdstrike wrote bad code that run as a driver, windows doesn’t like bad code in their drivers. Kernel level code is generally expected to run properly. crowdstrike’s kernel level code was really bad. Embarrassingly bad.
If the host creates a playlist and everyone can add their favorite song to the playlist, the host won’t be blamed if you add “erika”. People rightfully think you are an ignorant weirdo or a bad person, not the host.
OTOH, if you build a playlist manager for playlists everyone can add to, you make sure nothing anyone adds will break it…
Except that the playlists are super complex and there is no way to make sure. Like building an engine and having to make sure that no 3rd party accessory will break it. Like the parented “sand injector”.
They were legally not allowed to as part of an agreement to not be s monopoly and allow competition.
Well do you want to have Microsoft approving EVERY driver for windows? Rip 3rd party open source drivers for retro hardware
What do you think WHQL is?
The problem with CrowdStrike’s solution is that they got csagent.sys driver signed by WHQL, and the driver will download p-code from the internet and execute it. This allows them to push out changes without waiting for Microsoft approval.
The biggest problem occurs when you don’t sanitize your inputs and someone accidentally uploads a blank file padded with zeroes. The driver dereferences a null value, and crashes your system. Hard.
I don’t want to argue with you and I admit that my phrasing wasn’t ideal but I assumed that it was obvious that i was talking about everything that would be executed on the machine. Apparently it wasn’t.
Ahh. Approving every piece of software would make them… Apple.
You did say “driver”, and Microsoft typically approves every single driver on the majority of PCs.
Can you explain why you think this is a Microsoft issue?
Doesn’t Microsoft allow crowdstrike to make updates? Being such a critical part of the OS it’s up to Microsoft to ensure their procedures are robust and being followed.
How do you implement that? How is it feasible that Microsoft tests all the third party drivers?
Don’t get me wrong I believe Microsoft is partly to blame for this problem as well but for making it so hard for system admins to go around the system and solve things (as compared to Linux where you can do anything). I think sys admins would have solved this much faster if they were using Linux systems
I was just probing your argument because I guessed it was the typical nonsense of Microsoft bad, Linux good, without a good explanation
I think if it’s going on every windows computer windows should have a process in place to prevent what happened from happening. Windows are for profit, they have the money to do it right but they got greedy. A staggered rollout would have prevented most of it and is a very simple thing to require. Also if it’s going on every windows computer or most I wouldn’t consider that a third party anymore even if that’s how they keep liabilities at arms length
It’s not, its just popular. Its not windows job to police what software you choose to run on it.
However Windows does actually have an optional certification program called WHQL for kernal level drivers. Getting this certification lets updates get posted via windows’ internal updater. It checks the driver calls apis correctly and doesn’t misbehave with interrupt handling among other tests. Crowdstrike driver did pass this, and in fact there was no bug with the driver, the bug was with the configuration file. The configuration file updates about once an hour (and it really needs to do that), and does so outside the windows update process, making windows powerless to control its rollout. whql certification takes a few days to run and configuration files aren’t really in scope.
Thanks for the info, i didn’t know that and understand it a bit better now.
Same thing would happen on Linux if someone wrote a bad kernel module and integrated it into the OS. In fact, Crowdstrike did have a similar problem a few months ago on Linux.
I’m no fan of Microsoft, but this isn’t their fault.
An OS should not have to require a 3rd party driver for security.
Microsoft should be writing that driver as an OS component. Drivers should be restricted for taking to hardware.
I thought only people who subscribed to CrowdStrike’s services had that driver installed.
That is true. The issue is that because there are so many permission escalation issues in windows, that many anti malware products must run as kernel drivers.
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