NATO, specially the US, has meticulously blocked off all options other than an invasion by being an anti-Russia org and repeatedly not letting Russia join NATO because of that, backing the 2014 fascist coup in Ukraine to sideline the Minsk agreements against the interests and wishes of Eastern Ukrainians
and the subsequent killings of ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine, like Donbas, DPR, and LPR, by the coup gov for resisting.
They are also the ones blocking negotiations with Russia. So yes, this is NATO using Ukraine for a proxy war.
These excuses for Russian aggression and how they just had to attack because NATO is a meanie organization and there was an unfriendly government in Ukraine and you just can’t have that and they literally made us attack them are just as ridiculous to me as US excuses about freedom, democracy and whatnot that they use to invade countries.
Fuck Russia and their attack on Ukraine, they are the ones who caused the death of those Ukrainians. They are literally the ones killing them.
They are also the ones blocking negotiations with Russia
Ukraine could negotiate if it wanted to, but they don’t want to give in to Russia for obvious reasons, either just losing parts of their land to Russian land grab or worse, being subjugated by them. Russia on the other hand could stop this just by leaving. That’d be the end of it. And they wouldn’t have to give up their lands or anything. Could just go home.
So yes, this is NATO using Ukraine for a proxy war.
Russia literally invaded them but it’s NATO that’s bad for supporting their defense. The logic astounds me.
What do you think your country should do if the world’s most war-mongering and most powerful superpower is making a military alliance specifically against your country, and is coup’ing neighboring ones if their population doesn’t want to do so?
What if your country has tried repeatedly to join it, but has been refused every time? What if your country’s socialist system which this military alliance was formed against in the first place has already been overthrown and taken over by capitalists, and they still don’t stop? Seriously, what the fuck else is there to do?
Ukraine could negotiate if it wanted to
Tell that to the Eastern Ukrainians who this fascist government doesn’t represent, and has been killing for resisting.
What do you think your country should do if the world’s most war-mongering and most powerful superpower is making a military alliance explicitly against your country, and is coup’ing neighboring ones if their population doesn’t want to do so?
I certainly wouldn’t be calling for an invasion of neighboring countries on the basis of not liking their government. Not justified for Russia, not justified for anyone imo. But hey, can’t have governments who aren’t aligned with us, gotta invade and even blame them for being invaded.
What if your country has tried repeatedly to join it, but has been refused every time? Seriously, what the fuck else is there to do?
Not start a war over not being allowed to join an international organization for one. “If you don’t let us in on your military alliance I’ll start attacking”. What a mindset.
Tell that to the Eastern Ukrainians who this fascist government doesn’t represent, and has been killing for resisting.
They did negotiate with Russia, or their self-proclaimed states did. NATO didn’t prevent that. Neither is it preventing Ukraine’s government from doing it. No idea what you were on about there.
You haven’t answered what else you think they should, or even could, do.
I think they should stop attacking other countries. It’s really simple as that. It would be healthy to find some other ways to deal with unfriendly governments other than attacking them. Or just learn to accept that not everyone is aligned with you, as most do in similar situation. Though the idea that attacking and invading them is the only imaginable way is very on brand.
NATO is an organization of primarily imperial core countries, not really an international one.
International just means “existing, occurring, or carried on between nations.” There’s two or more different nations, it’s international.
Ukrainians are literally being dragged off the street by the regime to be thrown into the meat grinder. Meanwhile, most Ukrainians aren’t even in Ukraine anymore. In fact, Russia has the highest population of Ukrainian refugees at the moment.
I don’t know if you’ve noticed that Ukraine is trying to defend their country against a Russian attack.
The fascist regime that the west installed in Ukraine in a violent coup that overthrew the democratically elected government is sacrificing the people of Ukraine in a proxy war between NATO and Russia.
The fascist regime that the west installed in Ukraine in a violent coup that overthrew the democratically elected government is sacrificing the people of Ukraine in a proxy war between NATO and Russia.
Riiight. The evil dogs must be taken down, so Russia literally had no choice but to invade. NATO literally forced them!
Meanwhile, most Ukrainians aren’t even in Ukraine anymore
I wanted to see the source you are using to know who they considered refugees and what areas are counted for Ukraine’s population. And especially what source/numbers you are using for Ukraine’s current total population because the total from your link or the estimates I’ve found are nowhere near any of the even lower end estimates I’ve seen.
You seem to be somehow upset over me asking for your sources. I’m not sure why that is, making a claim and someone asking for a source is fairly normal internet discussion stuff. Nothing to be upset over.
Riiight. The evil dogs must be taken down, so Russia literally had no choice but to invade. NATO literally forced them!
LMFAO Stoltenberg literally admitted this already. Update your talking points. 😂
Then lastly on Sweden. First of all, it is historic that now Finland is member of the Alliance. And we have to remember the background. The background was that President Putin declared in the autumn of 2021, and actually sent a draft treaty that they wanted NATO to sign, to promise no more NATO enlargement. That was what he sent us. And was a pre-condition for not invade Ukraine. Of course we didn’t sign that.
The opposite happened. He wanted us to sign that promise, never to enlarge NATO. He wanted us to remove our military infrastructure in all Allies that have joined NATO since 1997, meaning half of NATO, all the Central and Eastern Europe, we should remove NATO from that part of our Alliance, introducing some kind of B, or second class membership. We rejected that.
So he went to war to prevent NATO, more NATO, close to his borders.
I wanted to see the source you are using to know who they considered refugees and what areas are counted for Ukraine’s population.
Moving them goalposts when faced with the facts eh.
You seem to be somehow upset over me asking for your sources. I’m not sure why that is, making a claim and someone asking for a source is fairly normal internet discussion stuff. Nothing to be upset over.
I’m not upset about anything, I just think you’re an artless troll.
“NATO didn’t sign our treaty so we just had to attack” is not a very convincing justification for a damn invasion at all. Russia chose to attack instead of dealing with an unfriendly government. Which is fucked up.
I wonder if people who think NATO expansion was a fine justification would be fine with the US invading countries to prevent them from joining military alliances they oppose. I know I wouldn’t be.
Moving them goalposts when faced with the facts eh.
You literally wrote this: “Meanwhile, most Ukrainians aren’t even in Ukraine anymore”. And I asked source for your claims.
I just want to see your source for this claim. I’m happy with the source for the other claim.
“NATO didn’t sign our treaty so we just had to attack"
Weird way to say NATO has been expanding towards Russia since the 90s.
I wonder if people who think NATO expansion was a fine justification would be fine with the US invading countries to prevent them from joining military alliances they oppose. I know I wouldn’t be.
If you think US would be fine with countries that border it joining an alliance with Russia you’re even more ignorant than I thought. Go read up on the Cuban missile crisis.
I just want to see your source for this claim. I’m happy with the source for the other claim.
I literally provided you with a source. Maybe work on that reading comprehension of yours?
Weird way to say NATO has been expanding towards Russia since the 90s.
Governments aligning themselves differently to how you’d like is no justification for invading them and killing their people.
Would you be fine with the reverse, USA or Germany or someone invading if those countries had been joining CSTO for example? Would a military alliance aligned away from those countries be a justification enough for attacking them and killing their people? I wouldn’t think so.
If you think US would be fine with countries that border it joining an alliance with Russia you’re even more ignorant than I thought. Go read up on the Cuban missile crisis.
And tell me, are you fine with the US behaviour there? And I didn’t say they’d be fine with it, I said I wouldn’t be fine with them doing it.
I literally provided you with a source. Maybe work on that reading comprehension of yours?
Your source doesn’t prove that “most Ukrainians aren’t even in Ukraine anymore”. If anything, based on all estimates of current Ukrainian population I could find compared to the refugee numbers you provided, it argues against that point.
What number are you using for Ukraine’s current total population?
You’re arguing with a person driven by anti-Western/NATO viewpoints; you’ll never get a fair response. Even if they find something to back up their claims, it’ll be a biased source. Expect sputnik news or some other direct Russian propaganda source. Just gotta get used to that on Lemmy.
Edit: Removed the “t” word as apparently that’s a slur now.
Even if they find something to back up their claims, it’ll be a biased source.
There is literally no such thing as an unbiased source, and the core bias of the corporate media is the bias of the capitalist class.
The whole concept of the “left” or ”right“ “bias” being inversely correlated with factualness is garbage. These kinds of graphs, which try to convince us that centrism equals factualness, are garbage:
Sometimes I’m just curious where people got their numbers from. This time both for because the first argument seems unlikely and second I wanted to know if they count the occupied areas and those forcibly moved for example.
Lol, the Russian total includes people who were already in Russia before they invaded, but no other country does. Might be skewing the number there, a bit.
Not really the gotcha you seem to think it is. The fact that lots of Ukrainians were happy living in Russia even before the war illustrates that Ukrainians weren’t exactly anti-Russian.
The most pro-Russian, pragmatic, and morally flexible Ukrainians would be the ones to be living in Russia even post-2014 invasion. I think most of the ordinary people were somewhat neutral before the invasions. Plus, you know, a population always contains a spectrum of opinions. The Eastern part of Ukraine was known to have a reasonable amount of pro-Russian people in it before 2014, that’s part of how Putin justified invading.
I’m sure even now most Ukrainians aren’t exactly anti-Russia anymore than Americans were anti-Afghanistan when we (needlessly) invaded to go after the Taliban. A vocal minority were rabid about killing them all, while most people were only interested in killing the actual terrorists, if they were in support of the invasion at all. Likewise, I’m sure most Ukrainians don’t find Russia to be evil in general, only the people in power responsible for the invasions.
Finally, I must point out that while Russia is merely at the top of the list with muddy population numbers, not-Russia absolutely curb stomps yes-Russia.
The vast majority of people, when faced with an invasion, run away from the invaders, not towards them.
Ukraine was already in a civil war past 2014, and most people in eastern Ukraine are ethnically Russian or have family ties to Russia. They do not see this as an invasion. A few slides from this lecture that Mearsheimer gave back in 2015 clearly show the dynamics in Ukraine. First, here’s the demographic breakdown of Ukraine:
here’s how the election in 2004 went:
this is the 2010 election:
As we can clearly see from the voting patterns in both elections, the country is divided exactly across the current line of conflict. Furthermore, a survey conducted in 2015 further shows that there is a sharp division between people of eastern and western Ukraine on which economic bloc they would rather belong to:
So, the most likely scenario is that people from western Ukraine would’ve fled to Europe, while many in central and eastern Ukraine would’ve gone to Russia.
Good data, I wasn’t gonna bother digging it up, but I’m glad you did. I think it’s important to remember that all realities are more mixed than we like to infer from plots and our preferred view. That is, while the geographic opinions are strong, neither the East nor the West of Ukraine are a monolith in their opinions.
I think you’re being a bit generous with the claim that central Ukrainians would have favored Russia as a destination, especially considering the data you brought. I also think you’re being generous with just how pro-Russia the East actually is, again considering the data you presented. I would also like to point out that the current front lines overlapping with public opinion tendencies is mostly a coincidence. Russia was intending to fully conquer Ukraine and failed. The current front line is only minimally influenced by the loyalty majority of the locals.
Still, I want to thank you for bringing the data. Good numbers are always better than no numbers.
Bizarre to read how Ukrainians fighting a Russian invasion and having men dead because of that is now NATO’s fault somehow.
I like these looks at logic and ideology totally bizarre to me. Lemmy is great for that
NATO, specially the US, has meticulously blocked off all options other than an invasion by being an anti-Russia org and repeatedly not letting Russia join NATO because of that, backing the 2014 fascist coup in Ukraine to sideline the Minsk agreements against the interests and wishes of Eastern Ukrainians
and the subsequent killings of ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine, like Donbas, DPR, and LPR, by the coup gov for resisting.
They are also the ones blocking negotiations with Russia. So yes, this is NATO using Ukraine for a proxy war.
These excuses for Russian aggression and how they just had to attack because NATO is a meanie organization and there was an unfriendly government in Ukraine and you just can’t have that and they literally made us attack them are just as ridiculous to me as US excuses about freedom, democracy and whatnot that they use to invade countries.
Fuck Russia and their attack on Ukraine, they are the ones who caused the death of those Ukrainians. They are literally the ones killing them.
Ukraine could negotiate if it wanted to, but they don’t want to give in to Russia for obvious reasons, either just losing parts of their land to Russian land grab or worse, being subjugated by them. Russia on the other hand could stop this just by leaving. That’d be the end of it. And they wouldn’t have to give up their lands or anything. Could just go home.
Russia literally invaded them but it’s NATO that’s bad for supporting their defense. The logic astounds me.
What do you think your country should do if the world’s most war-mongering and most powerful superpower is making a military alliance specifically against your country, and is coup’ing neighboring ones if their population doesn’t want to do so?
What if your country has tried repeatedly to join it, but has been refused every time? What if your country’s socialist system which this military alliance was formed against in the first place has already been overthrown and taken over by capitalists, and they still don’t stop? Seriously, what the fuck else is there to do?
Tell that to the Eastern Ukrainians who this fascist government doesn’t represent, and has been killing for resisting.
I certainly wouldn’t be calling for an invasion of neighboring countries on the basis of not liking their government. Not justified for Russia, not justified for anyone imo. But hey, can’t have governments who aren’t aligned with us, gotta invade and even blame them for being invaded.
Not start a war over not being allowed to join an international organization for one. “If you don’t let us in on your military alliance I’ll start attacking”. What a mindset.
They did negotiate with Russia, or their self-proclaimed states did. NATO didn’t prevent that. Neither is it preventing Ukraine’s government from doing it. No idea what you were on about there.
You haven’t answered what else you think they should, or even could, do.
NATO is an organization of primarily imperial core countries, not really an international one.
I think they should stop attacking other countries. It’s really simple as that. It would be healthy to find some other ways to deal with unfriendly governments other than attacking them. Or just learn to accept that not everyone is aligned with you, as most do in similar situation. Though the idea that attacking and invading them is the only imaginable way is very on brand.
International just means “existing, occurring, or carried on between nations.” There’s two or more different nations, it’s inter national.
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Ukrainians are literally being dragged off the street by the regime to be thrown into the meat grinder. Meanwhile, most Ukrainians aren’t even in Ukraine anymore. In fact, Russia has the highest population of Ukrainian refugees at the moment.
I don’t know if you’ve noticed that Ukraine is trying to defend their country against a Russian attack.
I’d be interested to see the source for these numbers. They seem hard to believe.
The fascist regime that the west installed in Ukraine in a violent coup that overthrew the democratically elected government is sacrificing the people of Ukraine in a proxy war between NATO and Russia.
here you go, could’ve found this in 2 seconds of googling instead of making a clown of yourself here https://www.statista.com/statistics/1312584/ukrainian-refugees-by-country/
Riiight. The evil dogs must be taken down, so Russia literally had no choice but to invade. NATO literally forced them!
I wanted to see the source you are using to know who they considered refugees and what areas are counted for Ukraine’s population. And especially what source/numbers you are using for Ukraine’s current total population because the total from your link or the estimates I’ve found are nowhere near any of the even lower end estimates I’ve seen.
You seem to be somehow upset over me asking for your sources. I’m not sure why that is, making a claim and someone asking for a source is fairly normal internet discussion stuff. Nothing to be upset over.
LMFAO Stoltenberg literally admitted this already. Update your talking points. 😂
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm
Moving them goalposts when faced with the facts eh.
I’m not upset about anything, I just think you’re an artless troll.
“NATO didn’t sign our treaty so we just had to attack” is not a very convincing justification for a damn invasion at all. Russia chose to attack instead of dealing with an unfriendly government. Which is fucked up.
I wonder if people who think NATO expansion was a fine justification would be fine with the US invading countries to prevent them from joining military alliances they oppose. I know I wouldn’t be.
You literally wrote this: “Meanwhile, most Ukrainians aren’t even in Ukraine anymore”. And I asked source for your claims.
I just want to see your source for this claim. I’m happy with the source for the other claim.
Weird way to say NATO has been expanding towards Russia since the 90s.
If you think US would be fine with countries that border it joining an alliance with Russia you’re even more ignorant than I thought. Go read up on the Cuban missile crisis.
I literally provided you with a source. Maybe work on that reading comprehension of yours?
Governments aligning themselves differently to how you’d like is no justification for invading them and killing their people.
Would you be fine with the reverse, USA or Germany or someone invading if those countries had been joining CSTO for example? Would a military alliance aligned away from those countries be a justification enough for attacking them and killing their people? I wouldn’t think so.
And tell me, are you fine with the US behaviour there? And I didn’t say they’d be fine with it, I said I wouldn’t be fine with them doing it.
Your source doesn’t prove that “most Ukrainians aren’t even in Ukraine anymore”. If anything, based on all estimates of current Ukrainian population I could find compared to the refugee numbers you provided, it argues against that point.
What number are you using for Ukraine’s current total population?
You’re arguing with a person driven by anti-Western/NATO viewpoints; you’ll never get a fair response. Even if they find something to back up their claims, it’ll be a biased source. Expect sputnik news or some other direct Russian propaganda source. Just gotta get used to that on Lemmy.
Edit: Removed the “t” word as apparently that’s a slur now.
There is literally no such thing as an unbiased source, and the core bias of the corporate media is the bias of the capitalist class.
The whole concept of the “left” or ”right“ “bias” being inversely correlated with factualness is garbage. These kinds of graphs, which try to convince us that centrism equals factualness, are garbage:
The workings of corporate media were explained about forty years ago in Inventing Reality and Manufacturing Consent.
A five minute introduction: Noam Chomsky - The 5 Filters of the Mass Media Machine
Sometimes I’m just curious where people got their numbers from. This time both for because the first argument seems unlikely and second I wanted to know if they count the occupied areas and those forcibly moved for example.
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Lol, the Russian total includes people who were already in Russia before they invaded, but no other country does. Might be skewing the number there, a bit.
Not really the gotcha you seem to think it is. The fact that lots of Ukrainians were happy living in Russia even before the war illustrates that Ukrainians weren’t exactly anti-Russian.
The most pro-Russian, pragmatic, and morally flexible Ukrainians would be the ones to be living in Russia even post-2014 invasion. I think most of the ordinary people were somewhat neutral before the invasions. Plus, you know, a population always contains a spectrum of opinions. The Eastern part of Ukraine was known to have a reasonable amount of pro-Russian people in it before 2014, that’s part of how Putin justified invading.
I’m sure even now most Ukrainians aren’t exactly anti-Russia anymore than Americans were anti-Afghanistan when we (needlessly) invaded to go after the Taliban. A vocal minority were rabid about killing them all, while most people were only interested in killing the actual terrorists, if they were in support of the invasion at all. Likewise, I’m sure most Ukrainians don’t find Russia to be evil in general, only the people in power responsible for the invasions.
Finally, I must point out that while Russia is merely at the top of the list with muddy population numbers, not-Russia absolutely curb stomps yes-Russia.
The vast majority of people, when faced with an invasion, run away from the invaders, not towards them.
Ukraine was already in a civil war past 2014, and most people in eastern Ukraine are ethnically Russian or have family ties to Russia. They do not see this as an invasion. A few slides from this lecture that Mearsheimer gave back in 2015 clearly show the dynamics in Ukraine. First, here’s the demographic breakdown of Ukraine:
here’s how the election in 2004 went:
this is the 2010 election:
As we can clearly see from the voting patterns in both elections, the country is divided exactly across the current line of conflict. Furthermore, a survey conducted in 2015 further shows that there is a sharp division between people of eastern and western Ukraine on which economic bloc they would rather belong to:
So, the most likely scenario is that people from western Ukraine would’ve fled to Europe, while many in central and eastern Ukraine would’ve gone to Russia.
Good data, I wasn’t gonna bother digging it up, but I’m glad you did. I think it’s important to remember that all realities are more mixed than we like to infer from plots and our preferred view. That is, while the geographic opinions are strong, neither the East nor the West of Ukraine are a monolith in their opinions.
I think you’re being a bit generous with the claim that central Ukrainians would have favored Russia as a destination, especially considering the data you brought. I also think you’re being generous with just how pro-Russia the East actually is, again considering the data you presented. I would also like to point out that the current front lines overlapping with public opinion tendencies is mostly a coincidence. Russia was intending to fully conquer Ukraine and failed. The current front line is only minimally influenced by the loyalty majority of the locals.
Still, I want to thank you for bringing the data. Good numbers are always better than no numbers.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
this lecture
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
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Ah yes, disinformation as reported by mainstream western media. 🤡