The game will never be what people wanted (and what was - to some extent - promised). It’s too flawed and unfinished to be fixable through patches.
I still thoroughly enjoyed it (I’m just about to finish my first playthrough at 100+ hours), but the game has to be approached with the understanding that it’s fundamentally flawed. I have no problems with that, Fallout: New Vegas is one of my favourite games so I’m comfortable with the situation and I’m used to fixing problems myself through mods (yes, even on a first playthrough).
The best comparison I can think of is Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines (though perhaps that game is now too old to be a relevant example). You can’t play it expecting a finished, polished product, but it’s still worthwhile and the good parts are really good.
Yeah the writing in Cyberpunk 2077 is honestly phenomenal, and the setting is really good. I was honestly shocked by how good the writing and VA in this game actually are. Maybe it’s because it’s more relevant to me, but it’s the first time since FNV I really felt the writing in a game was gripping and interesting to me on a serious level.
It’s gameplay is honestly decent enough as well. Gunplay isn’t bad, and with the large amount of mobility makes the gunplay even more fun. Hacking and stealth are a bit op but fun, my biggest problem is the melee combat feels a bit weightless.
I am for sure looking forward to Phantom Liberty and the perk rework. Maybe my view of cyberpunk is tailored by the fact I never bought into the hype so I was never let down by it. I just watched Edgerunners, loved it. Played the game and was further impressed.
…it’s the first time since FNV I really felt the writing in a game was gripping and interesting to me on a serious level.
Disco Elysium remains the undisputed pinnacle of videogame writing and voice acting for me, so if you haven’t played it yet and are interested in a seriously moving and fascinating novel masquerading as a game I highly recommend it.
Cyberpunk has been seriously good as well, though. There are plenty of compelling characters and stories, and the evolution of the relationship between V and Johnny and the development of both of those characters has been enthralling.
It’s gameplay is honestly decent enough as well…
I feel like the gameplay reminded me of Witcher 3, in a sense. It has some good ideas, and many elements and mechanics that could make it interesting and engaging are there, they just don’t quite fit together properly, aren’t balanced well and in the end combat ends up a little simple, flat and too easy. I have installed countless mods that affect combat, though, and now I’m at a point where it’s seriously enjoyable.
I actually have played Disco Elysium and agree that it’s writing is consistently higher than Cyberpunk’s but I remember doing the devil ending in Cyberpunk and hearing male V express his fear of death, and the desperation to escape it at all costs felt so real to me in a way I’ve never seen. I’ve dealt with terminally ill patients and idk I’ve never seen someone capture the denial and bargaining as well as I felt it myself playing the character.
My favourite moment of writing in Disco Elysium was probably speaking to the boat lady who spits out some very harsh truths and for sure represents best the idea of “absords all critiques into itself” idea.
I must play Planetscape Torment because it’s the other big rpg that I’ve heard lots tell me is the pinnacle of writing in the genre.
That’s fair. Cyberpunk does have some standout moments and the immersive first person definitely makes some of them hit harder. I can imagine that ending being powerful (I haven’t seen it), and if you have that personal connection then especially so.
My favourite moment of writing in Disco Elysium was probably speaking to the boat lady who spits out some very harsh truths and for sure represents best the idea of “absords all critiques into itself” idea.
Disco Elysium is chock full of great lines and “Capital has the ability to absorb all critiques into itself…” is fantastic. For me, I just keep coming back to the ending. Specifically, the final dream.
It’s the absolute pinnacle of the game, in my opinion, at least if you’ve explored all the clues about Harry’s past. I’m trying to write in a way that won’t spoil too much for people who haven’t played, but if you’ve read the letter in the ledger, made that phonecall, bought the figurine, explored the stained glass window etc it all comes together in that dream scene.
It’s such a beautifully painful moment that just keeps building as you’re exposing the inner core of Harry, and culminates to a point on the perfect final line.
I totally forgot that I got the Spoilers phasmid myself on my first run, that was another stand out to me. It’s such a beautiful and strange moment, in any other game it would feel out of place but for me the phasmid is arguably the greatest part of the game for me. I felt like hope and a miracle that something like that could exist in the crapsack world of Elysium and Revachol. With the fear of the Pale overwhelming everything and a constant state of drudgery and decline of a failed revolution it was nice to see that there are still things worth finding in the world. Harry speaking with it is a great thing as it lets him understand and overcome his self-hatred and shame.
That fragile balance between hope and nihilism is where the game really shines for me. The communist vision quest is another instance, where a glimmer of sincerity shines through from the writers amid the bleak cynicism and satire. I always loved Steban’s soft, understated admission of why he believes in communism: “You could say we believe it because it’s impossible. It’s our way of saying we refuse to accept that the world has to remain… like this.”
Not only are there things worth finding in the world, but there are things worth fighting for, and it’s a gentle reminder that we ourselves must choose our beliefs. If we want to feel hope, we must choose to believe in it. Even when it’s impossible. We have to believe that there is a better future possible. To quote Steban again;
Well, the mods do some heavy lifting for sure (I mean, the game is literally unplayable without the unofficial patch), but they can only fix so much. The game was - much like Cyberpunk - shipped in an unfinished state that is to some extent beyond the scope of repair for mods. The final third of Bloodlines is not great. You can tell they ran out of time and had to cobble together an ending somehow with what they had. It devolves into a series of combat encounters in a game that is not exactly famous for its combat gameplay. Compare the last sections of the game to Santa Monica to see what I mean; imagine if they were afforded the time to give the whole game the same amount of thought and polish as they could Santa Monica.
Still, much like Cyberpunk, when it’s operating at full capacity it really hits the spot. Driving through the rain at night in first person through Night City gives me sort of similar vibes as walking the rainy streets of Santa Monica, listening to Rik Schaffer’s phenomenal soundtrack. Both games nail the atmosphere, at least at times.
They’re actually fairly similar, carried by their characters, stories, setting and atmosphere rather than gameplay.
I also have to mention the combination of Bloodlines cartoony art direction and the facial animation rigging of Source Engine. The characters are incredibly expressive for a 2004(!) game, it really holds up well.
Did not expect to be thinking about reinstalling that today, but here we are!
In the voice of Alistair Grout: Damn it all, now I’m doing it too!
Vampire the masquerade was way ahead of it’s time and underrated as a game.
Cyberpunk was absolutely way too ambitious. But they’ve made substantial efforts to fix the stuff that was broken or bugged. It has become a very good game.
Both games were too ambitious, really. They really are like kindred spirits. It’s still unbelievable that Bloodlines is playable at all considering it was developed on an alpha version of the Source Engine held together with chopsticks and chewing gum and without any official devtools. It still bums me out we’ll never get the true Bloodlines 2 that could have been. Bryan Mitsoda was the soul of Bloodlines and it won’t be the same without him.
Cyberpunk was absolutely way too ambitious. But they’ve made substantial efforts to fix the stuff that was broken or bugged. It has become a very good game.
I genuinely love the game despite everything, and I think the experience is a worthwhile one, but I still think Cyberpunk has to be recommended with an asterisk and not as an unqualified very good game.
It’s true that post-patches the game isn’t the broken, buggy mess it was at launch, but I think the game has deeper running problems than that, to be honest.
The narrative CDPR wanted to tell is not suited for the open world game that their audience wanted, and the marriage between the two aspects is not natural.
The theme-park style open world is at odds with the immersion they want to sell and often undercuts your experience.
The story itself also has serious pacing issues, and some important side content is locked behind story progression in a way that makes the whole experience awkward.
Yes, Gog, thankfully there’s a lot of hints on the internet recommending the full unofficial patch. And it’s great to see how there’s still updates coming in every few months.
I actually have some opinions on the Plus Patch. I want to phrase this really carefully as Wesp5 is a hero for his work and dedication through the years, but he started taking a lot of liberties the last maybe 5-7 years, and the Plus Patch now contains stuff that is more mod than patch/restoration.
It has gotten to the point where I wish there were 3 tiers of unofficial patch, not two. The vanilla patch is only bugfixes, and lots of the stuff added back in the Plus Patch was actually good but just missing due to poor code or not being completely finished but 90% there. I wish there was a patch with just the bugfixes and those most obvious content restorations.
In the Plus Patch as it exists today, though, you have a lot of stuff that was cut for a reason shoehorned in, like unused OST tracks Wesp5 has inserted according to personal taste, or areas (and a quest) that were barely started where he himself filled in the blanks. And even complete mod content that - while they could be argued to be improvements - are alterations to the game according to Wesp5’s vision.
You still need the basic patch to even run the game, of course, otherwise it’s literally unplayable. But these days I recommend the Plus Patch for a second playthrough. Playing as Malkavian is a good enough reason for a second playthrough, anyway.
Awww… Come on… Bloodlines was built on something akin to a pre-release of the Source engine. Cut them a little slack on the bugs, it could only ever be a flawed gem.
Oh I’m well aware. They were constantly downstream as Valve was developing the Source Engine at the same time as Troika was using it to make Bloodlines, and there was no documentation or devtools available. It’s a minor miracle the game even runs at all.
It was still a troubled production beyond that, though, and Bloodlines was ultimately rushed to the finish and shoved out the door before it was ready. Like I said elsewhere in this thread, it becomes very noticeable in the final third of the game, where the quality doesn’t really match the high bar that the Santa Monica section establishes.
I still absolutely love the game, though. The atmosphere still hits home, even to this day. And Rik Schaffer’s soundtrack is iconic.
The game will never be what people wanted (and what was - to some extent - promised). It’s too flawed and unfinished to be fixable through patches.
I still thoroughly enjoyed it (I’m just about to finish my first playthrough at 100+ hours), but the game has to be approached with the understanding that it’s fundamentally flawed. I have no problems with that, Fallout: New Vegas is one of my favourite games so I’m comfortable with the situation and I’m used to fixing problems myself through mods (yes, even on a first playthrough).
The best comparison I can think of is Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines (though perhaps that game is now too old to be a relevant example). You can’t play it expecting a finished, polished product, but it’s still worthwhile and the good parts are really good.
Yeah the writing in Cyberpunk 2077 is honestly phenomenal, and the setting is really good. I was honestly shocked by how good the writing and VA in this game actually are. Maybe it’s because it’s more relevant to me, but it’s the first time since FNV I really felt the writing in a game was gripping and interesting to me on a serious level.
It’s gameplay is honestly decent enough as well. Gunplay isn’t bad, and with the large amount of mobility makes the gunplay even more fun. Hacking and stealth are a bit op but fun, my biggest problem is the melee combat feels a bit weightless.
I am for sure looking forward to Phantom Liberty and the perk rework. Maybe my view of cyberpunk is tailored by the fact I never bought into the hype so I was never let down by it. I just watched Edgerunners, loved it. Played the game and was further impressed.
Disco Elysium remains the undisputed pinnacle of videogame writing and voice acting for me, so if you haven’t played it yet and are interested in a seriously moving and fascinating novel masquerading as a game I highly recommend it.
Cyberpunk has been seriously good as well, though. There are plenty of compelling characters and stories, and the evolution of the relationship between V and Johnny and the development of both of those characters has been enthralling.
I feel like the gameplay reminded me of Witcher 3, in a sense. It has some good ideas, and many elements and mechanics that could make it interesting and engaging are there, they just don’t quite fit together properly, aren’t balanced well and in the end combat ends up a little simple, flat and too easy. I have installed countless mods that affect combat, though, and now I’m at a point where it’s seriously enjoyable.
I actually have played Disco Elysium and agree that it’s writing is consistently higher than Cyberpunk’s but I remember doing the devil ending in Cyberpunk and hearing male V express his fear of death, and the desperation to escape it at all costs felt so real to me in a way I’ve never seen. I’ve dealt with terminally ill patients and idk I’ve never seen someone capture the denial and bargaining as well as I felt it myself playing the character.
My favourite moment of writing in Disco Elysium was probably speaking to the boat lady who spits out some very harsh truths and for sure represents best the idea of “absords all critiques into itself” idea.
I must play Planetscape Torment because it’s the other big rpg that I’ve heard lots tell me is the pinnacle of writing in the genre.
That’s fair. Cyberpunk does have some standout moments and the immersive first person definitely makes some of them hit harder. I can imagine that ending being powerful (I haven’t seen it), and if you have that personal connection then especially so.
Disco Elysium is chock full of great lines and “Capital has the ability to absorb all critiques into itself…” is fantastic. For me, I just keep coming back to the ending. Specifically, the final dream.
It’s the absolute pinnacle of the game, in my opinion, at least if you’ve explored all the clues about Harry’s past. I’m trying to write in a way that won’t spoil too much for people who haven’t played, but if you’ve read the letter in the ledger, made that phonecall, bought the figurine, explored the stained glass window etc it all comes together in that dream scene.
It’s such a beautifully painful moment that just keeps building as you’re exposing the inner core of Harry, and culminates to a point on the perfect final line.
“See you tomorrow, Harry”
I totally forgot that I got the Spoilers phasmid myself on my first run, that was another stand out to me. It’s such a beautiful and strange moment, in any other game it would feel out of place but for me the phasmid is arguably the greatest part of the game for me. I felt like hope and a miracle that something like that could exist in the crapsack world of Elysium and Revachol. With the fear of the Pale overwhelming everything and a constant state of drudgery and decline of a failed revolution it was nice to see that there are still things worth finding in the world. Harry speaking with it is a great thing as it lets him understand and overcome his self-hatred and shame.
Loved having Kim there.
“I see it, too”
That fragile balance between hope and nihilism is where the game really shines for me. The communist vision quest is another instance, where a glimmer of sincerity shines through from the writers amid the bleak cynicism and satire. I always loved Steban’s soft, understated admission of why he believes in communism: “You could say we believe it because it’s impossible. It’s our way of saying we refuse to accept that the world has to remain… like this.”
Not only are there things worth finding in the world, but there are things worth fighting for, and it’s a gentle reminder that we ourselves must choose our beliefs. If we want to feel hope, we must choose to believe in it. Even when it’s impossible. We have to believe that there is a better future possible. To quote Steban again;
“In dark times, should the stars also go out?”
The mods to fix bloodlines turned it into a fantastic experience. Did not expect to be thinking about reinstalling that today, but here we are!
Well, the mods do some heavy lifting for sure (I mean, the game is literally unplayable without the unofficial patch), but they can only fix so much. The game was - much like Cyberpunk - shipped in an unfinished state that is to some extent beyond the scope of repair for mods. The final third of Bloodlines is not great. You can tell they ran out of time and had to cobble together an ending somehow with what they had. It devolves into a series of combat encounters in a game that is not exactly famous for its combat gameplay. Compare the last sections of the game to Santa Monica to see what I mean; imagine if they were afforded the time to give the whole game the same amount of thought and polish as they could Santa Monica.
Still, much like Cyberpunk, when it’s operating at full capacity it really hits the spot. Driving through the rain at night in first person through Night City gives me sort of similar vibes as walking the rainy streets of Santa Monica, listening to Rik Schaffer’s phenomenal soundtrack. Both games nail the atmosphere, at least at times.
They’re actually fairly similar, carried by their characters, stories, setting and atmosphere rather than gameplay.
I also have to mention the combination of Bloodlines cartoony art direction and the facial animation rigging of Source Engine. The characters are incredibly expressive for a 2004(!) game, it really holds up well.
In the voice of Alistair Grout: Damn it all, now I’m doing it too!
Vampire the masquerade was way ahead of it’s time and underrated as a game.
Cyberpunk was absolutely way too ambitious. But they’ve made substantial efforts to fix the stuff that was broken or bugged. It has become a very good game.
Both games were too ambitious, really. They really are like kindred spirits. It’s still unbelievable that Bloodlines is playable at all considering it was developed on an alpha version of the Source Engine held together with chopsticks and chewing gum and without any official devtools. It still bums me out we’ll never get the true Bloodlines 2 that could have been. Bryan Mitsoda was the soul of Bloodlines and it won’t be the same without him.
I genuinely love the game despite everything, and I think the experience is a worthwhile one, but I still think Cyberpunk has to be recommended with an asterisk and not as an unqualified very good game.
It’s true that post-patches the game isn’t the broken, buggy mess it was at launch, but I think the game has deeper running problems than that, to be honest.
The narrative CDPR wanted to tell is not suited for the open world game that their audience wanted, and the marriage between the two aspects is not natural.
The theme-park style open world is at odds with the immersion they want to sell and often undercuts your experience.
The story itself also has serious pacing issues, and some important side content is locked behind story progression in a way that makes the whole experience awkward.
I just wanted to express I’m very thankful for this comment.
It caused me to buy and play Bloodlines and it’s been fantastic.
That makes me really happy to hear! It’s pretty much the definition of a “flawed gem” in gaming, it’s easy to see why it’s become a cult classic.
Where did you buy it, GOG? You, uh… did install the unofficial patch, right?
Yes, Gog, thankfully there’s a lot of hints on the internet recommending the full unofficial patch. And it’s great to see how there’s still updates coming in every few months.
I actually have some opinions on the Plus Patch. I want to phrase this really carefully as Wesp5 is a hero for his work and dedication through the years, but he started taking a lot of liberties the last maybe 5-7 years, and the Plus Patch now contains stuff that is more mod than patch/restoration.
It has gotten to the point where I wish there were 3 tiers of unofficial patch, not two. The vanilla patch is only bugfixes, and lots of the stuff added back in the Plus Patch was actually good but just missing due to poor code or not being completely finished but 90% there. I wish there was a patch with just the bugfixes and those most obvious content restorations.
In the Plus Patch as it exists today, though, you have a lot of stuff that was cut for a reason shoehorned in, like unused OST tracks Wesp5 has inserted according to personal taste, or areas (and a quest) that were barely started where he himself filled in the blanks. And even complete mod content that - while they could be argued to be improvements - are alterations to the game according to Wesp5’s vision.
You still need the basic patch to even run the game, of course, otherwise it’s literally unplayable. But these days I recommend the Plus Patch for a second playthrough. Playing as Malkavian is a good enough reason for a second playthrough, anyway.
Awww… Come on… Bloodlines was built on something akin to a pre-release of the Source engine. Cut them a little slack on the bugs, it could only ever be a flawed gem.
Oh I’m well aware. They were constantly downstream as Valve was developing the Source Engine at the same time as Troika was using it to make Bloodlines, and there was no documentation or devtools available. It’s a minor miracle the game even runs at all.
It was still a troubled production beyond that, though, and Bloodlines was ultimately rushed to the finish and shoved out the door before it was ready. Like I said elsewhere in this thread, it becomes very noticeable in the final third of the game, where the quality doesn’t really match the high bar that the Santa Monica section establishes.
I still absolutely love the game, though. The atmosphere still hits home, even to this day. And Rik Schaffer’s soundtrack is iconic.
Couldn’t agree more.